ANTHONY LANZONE, ESQ.: Elder Abuse, Arbitration & Your Rights - Part 2

In Part 2 of our powerful conversation with elder care attorney Anthony Lanzone, we continue pulling back the curtain on why elder abuse and neglect cases are so hard to fight — and what families must know to protect their loved ones.

In this episode we dig into:
• Why arbitration agreements are hidden in nursing home paperwork and how they stack the deck against families
• How residents and families unknowingly waive their right to a jury trial
• The truth about nursing home bankruptcies and how they’re used to avoid accountability
• What happens when fines are issued and why residents rarely benefit
• Why the government’s oversight system is failing
• How private equity has reshaped long-term care for profit
• What you can do as a caregiver to advocate, protect your loved one, and push back

Anthony brings decades of experience litigating elder abuse cases, and his honesty and clarity are invaluable. If you care about someone in long-term care - or may one day - this episode is essential listening.

This conversation is emotional, eye-opening, and empowering. And it reinforces a truth we live by:

💜 We can’t wait for the system to fix itself. We have to fight — together.

Watch Part 1 first if you haven’t — it sets the foundation.
And please share this episode with anyone who loves or cares for an older or disabled adult.

Contact Anthony Lanzone:  

Email: mycase@www.lanzonemorgan.com
Phone: 888-887-9777

LINKEDIN

#LoveConquersAlz, #ElderCare, #ElderLaw, #NursingHomeReform, #ElderAbuseAwareness, #SeniorAdvocacy, #LongTermCare, #JusticeForOurElders, #PeopleOverProfit, #HealthPodcast, #AdvocacyPodcast

🎧 LOVE CONQUERS ALZ
Hosted by Susie Singer Carter & Don Priess
Because love is powerful, love is contagious… and Love Conquers Alz.

And don’t forget:
📽️ Watch “No Country for Old People” — a nursing home exposé documentary — now streaming on Amazon Prime, Tubi, Hoopla, and more.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Part Two Setup
• 2:00 Introducing Attorney Anthony Lanzone
• 3:45 Why Lawsuits Matter And Industry Change
• 5:20 Bankruptcy Tactics In Long‑Term Care
• 8:50 What Arbitration Clauses Really Do
• 12:00 Pre‑Dispute Vs Post‑Dispute Arbitration
• 14:00 You Can Refuse To Sign Arbitration
• 16:20 California Ruling On Healthcare POA
• 19:10 The Hidden Costs And Limits Of Arbitration
• 22:30 How Cases Still Reach Court
• 25:00 Hiring Lawyers And Fee Structures
• 28:00 Financial Elder Abuse Realities
• 31:40 Family Conflict, Standing, And Planning
• 36:30 Why Transparency Beats Stonewalling
• 38:00 Fines, Oversight, And Weak Enforcement
• 41:40 Private Equity And The Profit Problem
• 45:00 Collective Action And Closing Remarks
• 54:55 Thanks, Resources, And Listener CTA

Transcript

Don Priess: 0:00

When the world has got you down, Alzheimer's sucks. It's an equal opportunity disease that chips away at everything we hold dear. And to date, there's no cure. So until there is, we continue to fight with the most powerful tool in our arsenal, love. This is Love conquers all's a real and really positive podcast that takes a deep dive into everything, Alzheimer's, The Good, The Bad and everything in between. And now here are your hosts, Susie singer, Carter and me. Don Priess,

Susie Singer Carter: 0:40

hi everybody. This is Susie singer, Carter,

Don Priess: 0:42

and I'm Don Priess, and this is Love conquers alls, and we have a this is, this is different than we normally have, because we have a continuation of a conversation we had.

Susie Singer Carter: 0:53

Yeah, this is a part, this is a part two of a conversation that we had with our with a guest that is a elder care attorney. Is that dog barking too much? Are we good? Everybody? Are we good?

Don Priess: 1:09

It just depends small dogs. Listen.

Susie Singer Carter: 1:14

This is a podcast that's right, yeah, last week we had an incredible conversation, but we ran out of time with right Don and so we're going to pick this up on take two, and our Part Two rather, but we had a very dynamic conversation. So if you're listening to this now, please listen to part one first, because there's a lot of information, amazing information that you'll want to know. And I did a post last week after with with AMP. Well, why don't you give an introduction to to our guest first,

Don Priess: 1:54

Anthony land zone is the founding partner of land Morgan LLP, a firm built on courage, compassion and justice. Earning his Juris Doctor from Western State College of Law, Anthony went on to complete advanced training in dispute resolution at Pepperdine University's renowned Strauss Institute. He's an active member of the Consumer Attorneys of California and the American Association for Justice, driven by a lifelong passion to stand up for injustice. Anthony has dedicated his career to advocating for the rights and dignity of vulnerable individuals in nursing home and elder abuse cases and holding powerful institutions accountable. And we are honored to have him back as our guest today. Anthony lenzone,

Susie Singer Carter: 2:38

so after our conversation with Anthony last week, I am, I did a great post that I don't know if he saw it. I tried to tag him, but about, you know why it's important to at least, you know, try, try to talk to somebody and try to at least get, you know, hold these, hold these places accountable.

Anthony Lanzone: 3:00

Here's the thing, if you don't do that, if you have a viable case, and you don't do that, then you're not holding people to account. And by not holding people to account, you're encouraging the conduct to continue. Exactly perfect. You know. Is it going to change what happened? No. Does one case change the world? No. But cumulatively, it has to. And I've seen changes in the industry over 20 plus years, and, you know, just making them more aware, I think, has been a positive thing.

Susie Singer Carter: 3:29

And I got so much response, because people were like, We want to know more. We want to know more. So this is a very, you know, dynamic top topic that doesn't get talked about enough. And people are under all, all kinds of misunderstandings. And so we're, we're, we're setting out to to try to clear up some of those misunderstandings as complicated as it is, right? So let's jump into it, Don

Don Priess: 3:54

so let us welcome our fabulous guest in our part two. Anthony land zone, hello, Anthony.

Anthony Lanzone: 4:02

Hello Don Suzy, thanks for having me back.

Susie Singer Carter: 4:05

Well, thank you for coming back. You're, you're a champ of the highest kind. There's my, my great. I appreciate that. Last time we spoke, Anthony, we spoke about, you know, the burden of, like, taking the the actual, you know why? Why elder care and neglect cases are so difficult. We talked about that, and there's a high burden of truth. Is expensive to litigate, there's arbitration traps, there's systemic barriers like insurance and Medicare and Medicaid incentives and on and on and on. And so we wanted to come back and talk to you more about that, and dig in a little deeper. And I think, like, what can you tell us a little bit about how, the when, when companies that are taken to court, or, you know, if you, if you actually. They are successful in having a case against a corporation or a facility, or what, what happens and how, why? How are they able to declare bankruptcy and get away with that?

Anthony Lanzone: 5:16

Well, bankruptcy is part of the legal system, and people that cannot pay their debts or have the right to file for bankruptcy. Now the bankruptcy have to have to be legitimate, though they can't be collusion or things like that. The interesting thing about bankruptcy court is, oftentimes, there are things that if you're not in bankruptcy court, some of the actions would be considered illegal and actionable, but if you can get a bankruptcy judge to approve whatever acts you're doing, then you can get away with it. And so we have dealt with bankruptcies in the past, and I have a lot of strong opinions about the bankruptcies that I've dealt with in the past. Some have been legitimate and some, in my opinion, have not been legitimate. And I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer. Every time there's a bankruptcy involving one of my cases, we have to hire a bankruptcy lawyer. That's a whole different universe. And so I don't really know. I'm probably not the best person to talk about the bankruptcies, but I can tell you that the nursing homes are very good at filing for bankruptcy. It appears to me that some of these operators, not all of them, but some play the bankruptcy game, where they operate and they accumulate debt. They accumulate debt and claims accumulate debt and operations, and they get to a point where they can't accumulate any more debt and operate, at which time they file for bankruptcy. And there's a lot of shenanigans that can go on it in the in the bankruptcy court, and in some instances I've had, I've had experiences where they file for bankruptcy, get the debts discharged, and the sale of the entity essentially goes back to the owners in a different form, different name. That does happen, and it's part of the legal process, and when it happens, we got to deal with it and try to get the best result for our clients that we can under the circumstances.

Susie Singer Carter: 7:37

Thank you that it's so frustrating. It really is, because we hear it all the time, you know, and like these cases can take years and years and years and years, and then this is, what a date. This is the culmination of it.

Anthony Lanzone: 7:53

But I would say Susie that that's the exception. The bankruptcies really are, you know, for as many cases I've dealt with over the years. You know, every once in a while there's a bankruptcy but, but it is the exception, and it's, you know, it's definitely not something that I worry about very often when we're litigating these cases,

Susie Singer Carter: 8:21

that that's good to know. I mean, from what you know, I guess, from my partner's perspective, the former federal prosecutor, the things that he didn't the cases, and I think probably more with the larger, more franchise, like, like class action suits, those things happen because the stakes are very high, and that I would assume that that it happens more often in those situations, when we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in judgments you know at stake. You wanted to talk about arbitration, and I think that people need to understand that as caregivers like, what? What exactly is that? How is it baked into your your contract with a long term care and how does it actually work like you know? And how is it a negative for the caregiver and family?

Anthony Lanzone: 9:13

When somebody is admitted to a long term care facility, they're given a contract to sign and that in the form of a skilled nursing facility. These contracts are at least 100 pages long. It's a lot of legal jargon. There's a lot of different parts to it, and when they give this document to you. You're in a stressful spot. You're having to make decisions about a loved one's care that you probably don't have a whole lot of experience with, and you're not seeking out a lawyer to review the contract. You're probably not even reading the contract. You don't care. You're just going to. Whatever you need to do because you think you're doing the best thing for your loved one. Make no mistake about arbitration agreements. They are there for one reason, and that is to benefit the provider. There is nothing in there to benefit the consumer. I believe in arbitration agreements, but I do not believe in pre dispute arbitration agreements, it makes absolutely no sense, because consumers aren't able to anticipate what this what the dispute may be. And 90% I should say, most of the time, they have no idea that the arbitration clause is in there, and no one really discloses it to them or and people don't mean.

Susie Singer Carter: 10:43

What does that mean? Pre just predetermined dispute.

Anthony Lanzone: 10:47

So a pre dispute arbitration agreement is when I when I enter into a contract with you and say, we're going to do bit business and we're going to agree to arbitrate any disputes. So there's no dispute yet, but we're entering into agreement that if that, if we do have one, we're going to do an arbitration that's what I don't believe in. If people get into a dispute after the fact and they want to go arbitrate their clean claim after the fact, a post dispute arbitration agreement, those are fine, because people are consciously they know what the problem is. They know what their rights are, and if they want to go arbitrate it after the fact, that's fine, but, but what people don't realize, and here's the big danger in the term of long term care or is that you're not required to sign the arbitration agreement in order to get the care and services at these facilities, they don't tell you that, but you're not required to. They can't reject you as a resident if you refuse to sign the arbitration agreement. And people need to understand that you're not required to do that, and I suggest that you don't, and if you are considering it, you need to contact the lawyer about it. I've I'm not social media savvy, but for what, from what I do do, I get out there that, hey, if you are a loved one or about to go to a long term care facility and they want you to sign a contract, send me the contract. I'll look at it. I'll advise you on it, no charge, just I want people to understand what they're getting themselves into and what their rights are.

Don Priess: 12:29

Have you heard of situations where they the facility says, Hey, unless you sign this? I mean, they you say they can't do it. But do they state, or they go ahead and say, unless you sign this, you know, we can't do this. And if they say that, what do you do?

Anthony Lanzone: 12:45

I'd say that that's the exception. That's rare, that that happens most of the time. They just try to throw it in the middle of all the stuff. Sign here, sign here, sign here, sign here. And my guess is that the person that's getting the paperwork signed, you know they're just doing their job, and they just want to go through it. And if you say, Hey, I'm not going to sign that, they they're aware that they're not required to do that. So but arbitrations are a big deal, and we just had a case at the Supreme Court of California last year. 20 years ago, I was on a losing end of a case called Garrison, where the appellate court disagreed with me and said, if you have a health care power of attorney and you sign an arbitration agreement, then you have The authority to bind that person to arbitration. And I made it my goal, I'm going to get that overturned one day. And lo and behold, last year, the Supreme Court came down and said, No, a health care power of attorney does not give that person authority to sign somebody's constitutional right to trial by jury away and so but if you have a durable healthcare power of attorney, that question still open. The courts have been interpreting that that they do, in fact, have the power to enter it into that contract. So it's complicated and and what's really upsetting in the care industry is that it's so unfair because of the circumstances where you're signing all this paperwork, the only thing that these people are worried about is getting their loved one the care that they believe that they need, that they're being told this place can take care of your loved one. They're not even considering the contracts that they're signing or the paperwork that they're signing, nor necessarily should they be so it's really frustrating when we get cases where these arbitration agreements exist and then you have to disclose to the clients who are already feeling horrible, right? They have this guilt. They're the ones that put their loved one there. They believe in the people in the white coats, we're going to do the right thing. And then now they find. Find out I got victimized again by an arbitration that I was totally unaware of, or and, or what it meant, right?

Susie Singer Carter: 15:10

So if, when you go into arbitration, maybe, maybe I just want to re Go, go over this one more time when you go, because I went into an arbitration agreement with a lawyer that was repping my mom and repping my mom when, when I was trying to get a an outside fiduciary to take a look at my mom's account, because my brother was doing shenanigans, okay, and she she, she didn't succeed. And then I got, like, a this master bill, like, six months later, as if she was still working for me and I and then she said, Well, you better pay it, you know, or, you know, I'll take you to court. And so I said, take me to court. I mean, you're done. We were done, like I don't owe you this money, right? So we went into arbitration, and everyone, like my brother in law, who's a lawyer, he said, you're going to lose because it's all stacked in the lawyer's favor, right? And, and I'm not, I'm just saying the arbitration in general. I'm not talking, I'm not saying lawyers. But so it's, you know, I won the arbitration because the lawyer that was that was overseeing it, you know, was phenomenal, and he really caught her in a bunch of lies and wrote this incredible like essay or whatever they submit at the end their reasonings for which was so, so validating, but, but when you go into an arbitration, let's say I wanted to indict this woman, or, you know, at least report her to the bar. I mean, do, when you go through that and you do, you have to win your arbitration in order to go to court. Is that? How it, if, like, how does that work? What is the process? So if you, let's say you, you unfortunately signed the agreement has an arbitration clause, you go into arbitration and you lose, because it's stat in the favor of the nursing home. You that it you're done. You have no leg to stand on.

Anthony Lanzone: 17:12

That's it, exactly. So I need to explain kind of the disadvantages to to the consumer with with arbitration agreement. So number one, arbitrations are extremely expensive. Why? Because you have to pay the arbitrator for their time right make these decisions and to hear the case and hear the evidence, weigh the evidence and make it make, make a decision. The consumers don't know that, and we're talking 10s of 1000s of dollars, maybe by the time an arbitration is done, hundreds of 1000s of dollars, just in cost to the arbitrator. So that's the first consideration. The second one is most of the arbitration agreements and most of the rules of arbitration significantly limit the scope of discovery. It limits the number of depositions that you can take. It limits the the amount of written discovery that you can do. Elder abuse neglect cases are really complicated and really difficult to prove, and the only way that we can do that is having a wide scope of discovery so that we can do what we need to do in order to meet in our in order to meet our heightened burden of proof. And so with that limitation, the likelihood of proving your elder abuse case in arbitration goes down substantially. In addition to that, the the art, I should say, arbitration. The reason, one of the reasons why the defendants want to go there is because they feel as though it takes the risk out of a big damage award like a jury would give right. And the reason why they think that is because, generally speaking, arbitrators are retired judges or retired lawyers. Lawyers tend to have seen it all before, right there. They've been the judge, and they have seen this before. So there's no shock value where, when you have a jury, and you show a jury a stage four bedsore and explain to the jury how they got this through some type of reckless conduct that has a lot of shock value. And so again, arbitrations are there for one reason, just to protect the defendants from these things that they're worried about when they have to approach a jury trial. You're right. Susie, when an arbitrator makes a decision, makes a decision, they write up their opinion, the prevailing party runs down to court says, here's the opinion judge. The judge signs a judgment for whatever that opinion says, and that's the end of it. The only way you know there has to be some type of egregious conduct or something strange about the arbitration, the only way to, you know, to get the court to maybe. Change, change the order, and that is very rare and very difficult to do, and I've never heard of it ever happening, although it's possible.

Susie Singer Carter: 20:12

Okay, so I'm confused. So how does anyone take a nursing home to to court if, if there's always an arbitration agreement or, I mean, they seem to be baked into all of these contracts. How do we How does anyone get around that?

Anthony Lanzone: 20:30

Yeah, well, you'd be surprised. There's a lot of technical things that the law requires of these arbitration agreements from the color of the font on certain parts of it to the font size to specific things that need to be in the contract for it to be binding. Most of the time, it comes down to the person who's signing the contract, having to having the legal authority to do that, most of the time they don't, or if they have the elderly victim sign the contract, that comes down to capacity. Most of the time they don't have the capacity. And so most the time, I'd say, again, arbitration is the exception, not the rule, with the types of cases that we do, but we do end up in arbitration sometimes, and you know, that's okay if it happens, but we'd rather not be there, because, again, This, the deck is usually stacked against the consumer.

Don Priess: 21:43

So you said that just, you know, we don't waive our right to trial, our constitutional right to trial, because we agreed to go into arbit. I mean, once you sign it, but if it's that, it's like, Okay, it's time to go to arbitration. Can you just say, No, I'm not waiving my constitutional right I want to go to trial instead. Or how does that or you've signed it that it must go to arbitration at that point. Yeah, because at what point? So you're only saying that that happens before you sign it. You can say, I'm not going to sign this because I'm not going to waive my rights to trial. Is that correct?

Anthony Lanzone: 22:19

Correct if you sign a binding arbitration agreement, there's no take backs, you are stuck with that to the end, and you do waive your right to trial by jury, which I don't know why anybody would want to do that, to be honest with you. I just, you know, that's the whole system set up for that. And people that come up with these alternative forms, you know, they may make sense for for certain business type transactions, but consumer arbitration agreements generally are just unfair to the consumer.

Susie Singer Carter: 22:52

And so you just kind of doctors. We see that when you, when you go to a new doctor, I know, I, you know, I just had surgery earlier this year, and I mean, I just remember, like, every one of one of those pages says, you know, we go into arbitration, it has an arbitration agreement, yeah? And I always, I'm always think about that, and I'm hesitant, and I think, well, I don't think they're gonna operate on you if you don't sign that.

Anthony Lanzone: 23:17

Yeah, you know, those arbitration agreements to also say on the agreement that it's it's not a requirement to receive the care. And I'll tell you a personal experience. I had a problem with my eye, and I was in so much pain, and I went to this ophthalmologist because my optometrist referred me to this person, and there was an arbitration agreement, and it said, right there, you don't have to sign it to get care. And I told the lady at the front desk, I said, I'm not signing that. And she argued with me, and I said, it says right there, you don't have to sign it. And I was in so much pain, I signed it, gave it back to her, and then it also said that you have 30 days to withdraw, oh, your your your signature, your agreement. And so just the next day, I wrote a letter saying, I, I withdraw this.

Don Priess: 24:12

And that's all it takes. Is a simple it's it just takes a simple letter. There's no other forms you have to fill out. You've just read us and saying, I'm resending my, my right, correct.

Anthony Lanzone: 24:22

So, so long as the arbitration agreement says that you have 30 days to withdraw your authority, so long as it says that, and most of them do, then that's all it takes is, you know, you want something in writing.

Susie Singer Carter: 24:36

But it's so weird, how if all of these plays, if all of these, you know, offices have these and include them, and most of us sign them because a we're in pain or, you know, we don't, we're not thinking, we're just, we're signing the papers, and we're talking to someone, and we're just, you know, not paying attention. And then some malpractice happens. How do you how do malpractice? I know I'm getting off the topic of nursing home, but how if. If, if, if there is abuse and neglect in the nursing home, and you've signed it, and it's obvious, like how it just seems, it just seems like, Who would ever have the right to take somebody to court? Then if, if it's already baked in, and you don't know about it, like none of us do until they hear this job, this episode conquers all.

Anthony Lanzone: 25:24

Yeah, well, I mean, like, like, I said that, that the arbitrations are the exception. They're not the rule. And we've done arbitrations, but before and my clients have been able to get, you know, hold people accountable in arbitration as well. It's just not the forum that you want to be in for all the reasons that I stated, it's not the end of the world, but generally speaking, if you have a really strong case with real egregious conduct, you're probably going to do better in front of a jury than you are with an arbitration but again, it's not the end of the world. You can still, you know, seek justice in in the arbitration world.

Susie Singer Carter: 26:10

And when you said, you know, it's expensive arbitration, expensive. Who? Who encouraged those, those those expenses, is that the facility or the or the residents, yeah.

Anthony Lanzone: 26:25

So most the time, the arbitration agreements will say that the parties agree to split the arbitration fees. Sometimes I've seen arbitration agreements that say the defendant will incur the arbitration fees. But again, that's that's rare, but the cost,

Susie Singer Carter: 26:45

that's when you run, if it says that's when you go this place, is horrible. Get the hell out.

Anthony Lanzone: 26:54

It's just expensive. And people need to understand that, and they need to understand what they're signing. And it's just a shame. Just take advantage of people's duress to kind of get what they want.

Don Priess: 27:04

So, so let's say I've signed it, and now I'm going to arbitration. I don't have a lawyer. I'm just me. I assume you would recommend people not go into arbitration without a lawyer. But though, or is, I mean, Susie did? She went against a lawyer, just herself and she won. But that's a different, little different situation. So who? So then now, because when you do a case, you're you're on a contingency, you're like, on a whatever, 30 or 40% but in this case, there does that still exist. Or how do you handle when somebody comes to you and says, I have an arbitration what do we do? Or what do I do?

Anthony Lanzone: 27:46

Well, number one, if you are litigating a case of elder abuse, neglect or anything, I highly suggest you have a lawyer. It's complicated. In arbitration, you definitely need a lawyer. I mean, nobody can deal with all the all the legal intricacies of these cases on their own. The arbitration. I'm sorry, Don can you know, I

Don Priess: 28:14

was just saying, you know, there's obviously going to be a cost to that your time. There's going to be a cost to that, because in the arbitration, there may be no monetary you know, you may not get anything that. I don't know how that will work. So you obviously there will be a fee involved, and it's different than if you took on a case and said, We're gonna either go to trial or we're gonna settle. And that's where this fee is coming from.

Anthony Lanzone: 28:35

So there will, there are lawyers out there, like me that will do arbitrations on a contingency fee. It's just an extra added exorbitant cost, and but there's a lot of lawyers that won't do that, and so arbitration, again, is another that's another example of how it impedes accountability and justice, because it just makes it that much more difficult to find a lawyer to pursue the case, because it is an arbitration

Don Priess: 29:05

What's your recommendation to somebody? I mean, they you're you're you, and they may, you know, contact you, but you're not going to be able to handle every case in the United States. How do they find those the right type of lawyer for that? What's, what's their best path,

Anthony Lanzone: 29:24

get on the phone. You know, picking a lawyer is probably one of the hardest things to do, and I always encourage everybody that comes to our firm. I always ask them, have you talked to other lawyers? You know, I need you to go to go out and do your legwork to find the lawyer that you're comfortable with, because we're dealing with very sensitive, emotional types of cases, and you need to be comfortable with the lawyer. And the lawyers aren't going to come find you. You got to go find them. And so talking to your friends, your family, referrals are great. Uh. From other folks that know the lawyers, and so that's the only way to do it. You got to do the legwork, kind of like health care, right? You got to go find the right home for your mom or dad. You got to go find the right assisted living place, find the right doctor. They're not going to come to you. You're going to have to go do the legwork for it, for sure. But with technology now, it's pretty easy to find that particular lawyer with that specialty, regardless of what it is. And you know, usually there's a lot of reputable people out there that you have easy access to identify who they are.

Susie Singer Carter: 30:35

I have a question when so in your practice, you were focused on elder abuse and neglect. Is your practice the same as when someone is alive and there's say financial elder abuse going on? Is that something that you also

Anthony Lanzone: 30:53

focused on? Yes, one of the difficulties with the financial abuse cases is, you know, we can, we get a lot of calls about that, and one of the difficulties is, is when you're dealing with like the phone scammers, when the elderly folks, you know, put money into account somewhere, when you're dealing with the contractors that say, Hey, I want to put solar on your roof. Give me 10 grand. I'll come back and put it on. Those cases are really difficult, because it's really difficult to get the money back once it's gone it goes overseas, or it is overseas that makes those financial elder abuse cases really difficult to do Susie, and it's a shame. I can tell you a story. We had a case where a home health agency put a caregiver in a elderly woman's home who had hip surgery, and she was going to be, you know, there for a couple months, and then, you know, all in all indications were the elderly woman was going to be fine. Well, what happened was the caregiver started opening the mail and found that she had a bunch of money, and so the caregiver kept the woman drugged up for an extended period of time, while, all the while she's stealing the money, and the granddaughter, somehow was in Florida or something, contacted us, and we got involved. And in that case, we were able to get the money back, because the caregiver was working for an agency, so she was employed by somebody that was a reputable business owner that had insurance coverage for this type of thing, and and we were able to get that money back. But the majority of the time, you know, people hire independent caregivers, don't know where they're from, don't know what their experience is, and they'll take the money and run you never see them again. And so the financial elder abuse cases, you know, when people hire us, they're hiring us to get their money back, and if it's you know, doesn't make you know, if the all odds are that we're not going to get the money back, it doesn't make any sense to pursue a civil claim. So we have to be wary of that when we take cases, but they're just tough. I'm telling you this financial tough.

Susie Singer Carter: 33:27

It's really tough because, again, in every sector of elder care, there's such a bias against the actual person, against the person that you're litigating poor or right, you're, you're trying to protect like I was my mother's conservator, person I, you know, I, I sought it legally. I went into court. I was granted that because my brother had changed our, my mother's individual will into a living will with my stepdad, which I know she didn't want, but she had Alzheimer's, and he made himself trustee, where we were both trustees on my mom's or, you know, Power of Attorney equal on her will. So I didn't, I didn't know it until I, until I had to know it and adapt. And when it, when it was necessary to for my brother to do his fiduciary duty. He wasn't doing it, and I want and so the lawyer that took me to court that I had to arbitrate, said I could that we would file to have him removed as fiduciary and and, you know, ask the court to grant us a right to hire an outside fiduciary, because I didn't want the job. I just wanted it to be, you know, I wanted to know what my mom had. So, because I was taking care of everything, I didn't even know what, what was there for me to be able to take care of her with so when we went into court, the first time, the judge said to the lawyer. With me, you don't have standing. And I didn't understand that. And why didn't my lawyer understand that I didn't have standing. We went back again, and we still didn't have standing. And then my lawyer said, I can't do this for free anymore, meaning because she was going to get paid for my mom's estate. And I said, Well, I've paid for all the filings, like you told me, and now you're leaving me like stranded. And she said, Well, you either have to pay me or, you know, buy she gave me a nice coffee mug. And so I, I represented myself in the courtroom and and and I had, I did everything. I mean, I'm a pretty good student, and I did my due diligence, and I had everything, every reason why my brother was not doing his fiduciary duty. I never got a chance to say anything, because my brother hired this really high powered litigator who said, if, you know, if Susie tries to get power of attorney or we're gonna go, you know, she's just not gonna get it, no, not power of attorney standing, because I still, by the way, number three, I had no standing again like so she said, If she tries to get standing, we'll, we'll stop her. We'll not try to stop her, and I'm very expensive, meaning my brother would, you know, deplete all of my mom's funds to stop it for no reason. So I, you know, I cut my losses, and I just said it is what it is. If I have to support my mom, then whatever it is. But, oh, is that like? First of all, how does a lawyer like this lawyer that represented me not know that I don't have standing and why don't I have standing?

Anthony Lanzone: 36:52

Okay, those are really good questions, and I feel highly uncomfortable commenting on that case, since I don't know anything about it, other than what you just told me, but something that you did say, Susie, that that I think is important, that I wanted to bring up, and it's kind of on topic, okay, you know, all these problems that you had with your way, with your brother, and all the estate documents and all that stuff, did you ever have the opportunity prior to your mom, you know, while she was still capable, at least, have that conversation with her about, you know, Hey, Mom, what's the will say? What's the trust say? What's the power of attorney? What does this mean? You want to happen when this happens? What do you want to happen when that happens? Did, you and your family get together and and do all that? Yeah?

Susie Singer Carter: 37:45

Yeah. My mom was like, do not come and go my money. I don't want you know my husband's children to be to have you know any you know, opportunity to take your inheritance. Basically, I don't want that. And you know, that's just something she didn't want. And I knew that. And then when my brother told me that it was much easier to to have a living will, a living trust, that, you know, it's just just makes it the process much easier, I believed him, but so I didn't go and I, you know, I just did. I was so overwhelmed with caregiving at that time that I was like, oh, that's going to make it easier. Fine, but I didn't know that he took me off. Yeah, he made himself, trust me, the

Anthony Lanzone: 38:29

point that I want to make is and I'm guilty as charged because I haven't done this yet either, because it's, it's nerve wracking, but I think that estate planning should be a family affair, meaning, you know, whoever the beneficiaries are, whatever the trustees want to happen, they should be part of that from the time when whoever's gifting this stuff, or whatever it is makes that decision. Because if you you know you're you're reading legal documents, they're complicated, and every most of the time, people aren't lawyers, and they just want to do by right, do right by by their loved one when they're gone or while they're here when there's power of attorney involved. You got to make health care decisions like you. You have to deal with all that stuff, having those conversations while, while your loved ones are capable of having those conversations, I think they go a long way, because it gets everybody on the same page. Unfortunately, in your instance, Suzy, it's kind of different. You got taken advantage of, for sure, but I think the vast majority of people would benefit from that, so that when there's a there's an event like a heart attack or something, you got to go to a nursing home, the person making that decision has already had those conversations, and they have an understanding of what the loved one wants under those circumstances, and it takes all. All that angst out of it, because you're not having to interpret legal documents, and what does this mean, and what do they want? And I think that that would go a long way, and just prevention of a lot of this type of stuff that I deal with, because it would have all been kind of talked about and dealt with upfront. And so that angst that you feel when you're getting thrown arbitration agreements and 100 page contracts, and I think, would make people a lot more aware

Susie Singer Carter: 40:34

and amenable to being aware,

Anthony Lanzone: 40:36

yeah, and a lot more diligent in their efforts, where they could really take the position of more of an advocate right off the bat, as opposed to, you know, a deer in a headlight trying to make these decisions and figure everything out while it's going, sure,

Susie Singer Carter: 40:52

yeah, no, the crisis is the worst time to make decisions. I mean, that that is the best case scenario. What you just said. However, we do know that families, you know, are not immune to having doing, you know, the wrong thing, even if those those decisions have been, you know, predetermined, like what my brother did, which was, you know, not a good choice. So, and I hear it all the time. We talk about it, you know, on love conquers all the time about family members that, you know, make, make decisions that are not the best for the care, for their care II, but rather for themselves. And you know, and so it that's a problem. Legally, I don't know. It's just, you know, it's just as much abuse as you know, getting a stage four bed store in my mind, because if you can't support the person that you're caregiving for with the money that they've accrued themselves and they that's what it's there for then that is abuse, and that is taking advantage of someone who is vulnerable and may not be able to speak up in themselves. You know, I agree especially, yeah, so, I mean, I mean, do you get a lot of those cases? Or just, is it just me?

Anthony Lanzone: 42:19

No, you know, we get so many calls, Suzy about exactly what you're talking about, and it's not what we do. And in fact, like I have other people that I trust that I refer those cases to, and to my surprise, they're so busy they can't take on any more work. That's how crazy it is right now with all this estate litigation stuff, it's, it's unreal all the disputes to go I mean, and it's not a surprise, because you have all this wealth from the baby boomers getting transferred, and it's just gonna, it's just gonna go on and on and perpetuate itself. Just as people are getting older, there's gonna be a ton of elder abuse and neglect tech cases and long term care the trust litigation is just gonna overwhelm the probate courts.

Susie Singer Carter: 43:15

I'm telling you, everybody, you have to be prepared. Like, you, like Anthony, say, like, at least, like, had I known, and if I wasn't such a, you know, Pollyanna and believed that everybody was doing the right thing. And if I had, you know, been more involved with my brother, mentioned that he was going to, you know, bring in a lawyer and do a living trust, I should have been more mature about it and taken more of an active role, and sometimes as caregivers, we're so overwhelmed, and especially if you're the emotional caregiver, you're the one that's, you know, trying to make everything pretty and nice and make quality of life as best as it can be. And you're the hands on person. You're exhausted, you're exhausted, but it is. You're so right, like it's so important to get involved in those things that maybe aren't your you know your comfort zone, as it were, and and you know because it'll make your life and your loved one's life so much better and so much easier. If you do and don't, don't let anyone else take over, even if it's your own sibling or your own, you know, spouse or whatever it is like in you think that you can trust them. I not to be. I don't know this sounds terrible, but you have but sometimes you just have to be. You know, the temptation can change people. And I don't know it's just, it's better to just have a clean and clear up front, right 100%

Anthony Lanzone: 44:49

I mean, that's I always say, you know, to folks on the other side, I always tell them, you know, if you could just. Just tell the family when they complain about, hey, why is this happening? If you could just admit that something's not going well and just apologize, they probably wouldn't be calling me. But I understand why they don't do that. They circle the wagons, right? Because they're afraid of getting sued. They're afraid of the litigation. But the reality of it is, is this caregiving is still there's a human element to it. And if you treat people like human beings, they're going to treat you like a human being, too. And so I would probably be out of work if, if people would start, you know, admitting things aren't going well, but I understand why they do it, and that's just, that's the world we live in now. I guess

Susie Singer Carter: 45:47

it is okay. Here's a question that people ask all the time, but what when facilities are fined, if they do get fined, and, you know, they often use that as a as an excuse, like, why they're, you know, can't spend money in certain areas. They're worried about fines, or, you know, if they do get fined, which is not the norm, where does that money go? And do the residents ever benefit?

Anthony Lanzone: 46:12

Well, when it comes to nursing homes, the biggest fine that the law allows them to to levy is $100,000 and but that has to be an egregious case where there's investigations that go on and there's a finding that, you know this, whatever they did wrong directly led to somebody's death. That money goes back to the Department of Public Health. I don't know what they do with it, but that goes there. Most of the time when there's fines, the nursing homes have the ability to fight those fines and fight the findings of the Department of Public Health. There's administrative court that they can go through. A lot of them do that when they do get fines. But you know, I have some strong feelings about the oversight by the state of California and the federal government.

Susie Singer Carter: 47:11

It's clear just the state of California, just the state

Anthony Lanzone: 47:16

of California too. You know, they don't do a good enough job to protect the public is as nice as I can say it. The public can't rely on them to hold these facilities accountable. They just can't. A lot of it has to do with with with the evaluators, their jurisdictions, so to speak, they're not police officers. They're not, you know, they don't have any enforcement authority, so their investigations are really limited. And so I think, as we were talking about, I like to believe that everybody's going to do the right thing, and everybody's coming from the same place in terms of that context. But the reality of it is, is that people aren't and so the facilities know how to work the system, the oversight agencies seem to not have a whole lot of interest in doing anything other than what's minimally required of them. And the point I just want to make is that take those deficiencies and those citations for what they're worth if they do issue something like that. You know, where there's smoke, there's fire of the iceberg, and just don't rely on the government to do anything. You know, that's one nice thing about the civil courts, and one thing that I do believe is that the court systems can hold people accountable within a reasonable timeframe, where, when you're relying on the government to do stuff, if they get around to it, they'll get to it when they get to it, and the sense of accountability that they're, you know, going to administer on these places, it's just not the same. You can get their attention through a civil lawsuit, and I think that effectuates Change way more than these governing agencies.

Susie Singer Carter: 49:35

And see, as you're saying that I'm thinking about the nursing home lobby, it's just, you know, like, how it's manipulating the system to to remain the way it is. It's a state status quo, which is, you know, American Health Care Association.

Anthony Lanzone: 49:54

There's so much money involved in long term care, I mean, billions and. Millions of dollars, the insurance, the Medicare, the Medi Cal, Medicaid, there's billions of dollars in it. And business people take note of that. And it's like the industry has been manipulated by private equity for so long. And I've kind of come to the conclusion that I don't think long term care was ever intended to be a multi gazillion dollar business. I think it was always intended to be a ma and pa who are social workers by you know, they weren't in debt for the profit, they'll make a living, but they were really there to be hands on in each individual home, and they could be in charge of the people that they hire and hold people accountable on a daily I really think long term care was always intended to be that model. I agree. I think that has a huge that's, that's, that's the big reason why the industry is in the situation that it's in. It's that, any way you shake it, there's somebody making billions of dollars, millions of dollars a year at the you know, at the best, of compromising care for these folks. And it's really a shame to see it turn that way. And Medicare and the government, they just keep throwing money at them, not holding them accountable. And so I don't, unfortunately, I don't see these problems going away anytime soon, but I do hope through like your show and what you and don do just making people aware. People can do a lot to protect themselves from this stuff. Up to you guys for for what you do and getting the message out there.

Susie Singer Carter: 51:53

Well, back at you, Anthony, because you are a good guy. I can see that like I now know two really good lawyers, our partner, Don Rick mock Castle, who I say he's a badass with a heart of gold, and I think you're a bad I think you're another badass with a heart of gold. So I really, we really appreciate you, because, you know, I have not had luck. I didn't, and I'm not litigious at all, but I didn't. I mean, just trying to get, you know, my mom, what she deserved was so difficult, and it shouldn't be that difficult, and it's just it's tough, and and lawyers understand that, and they know how tough it is, and that's why it's people like you that will, you know, really throw them to, as they say, throw the starfish back in the water, even though there's so many you know, you're still picking up the starfishes and throwing them back in the water, because if you help one, you've helped one, which is great. So we love that about you, and really glad that you that we were able to connect, and that you're able to educate people a little bit more about what actually is the process. And I think the best thing that came out of all of this, not to mention, not withstanding that you gave us incredible information, is that is to do something, is to do something and hold the people that are doing these, these egregious acts to to be accountable in some way, at least do that because our, our, like you said, our fed and our and our states are not doing the best that they should be doing. So we have to take it into our own hands. And isn't that like it always is, we have to take it into our own hands, right? If you want something done, you have to do it yourself. So let's do it as a collective. Let's, let's, you know we're, we're a guarantee we are bigger than ACA, if we all get together and we're stronger than them. So that's the American Health Care Association, aka the nursing home lobby. So, you know, we it's not, it's not undo, it's not not doable. We can do this, right?

Anthony Lanzone: 54:09

Anthony, I think we can change being made every day. It's slow, but it's, you know, just keep fighting. That's all we can do.

Susie Singer Carter: 54:20

You gotta keep by otherwise, what's the alternative? I think that I love this, and I love everything that has to do with love, and that's why what Don

Don Priess: 54:29

Well, that's because love is powerful, love is contagious, and love conquers all. We thank everybody for watching, listening to our special two part, love conquers all, and I have a feeling we there's room for more. So hopefully in the future, we can have you back. And because this is not a simple there's not a simple conversation.

Susie Singer Carter: 54:50

Yes, send us questions. I mean, we Yeah, I think there's more conversations to be had. And, you know, take the advice that Anthony gave. Gave this in the past, these past two episodes, and I think it's really, really powerful, and I know you're exhausted, but call him. He said it in open door.

Don Priess: 55:13

Anytime, we'll have all we'll have all your information on on the show notes. And if, if everyone liked what you saw and heard today, please share, like, subscribe all those good things and

Susie Singer Carter: 55:25

watch, wait, yeah, watch, No Country for Old people and nursing home expose on Amazon Prime and on to be and and on, hoopla and on. If you're in other countries, you can catch it on fire and on Jen Jing world, and you're you can't miss it, so you must watch it, because it's your it's about you. And yeah, I love you all, and we'll see you next time. Take care. Bye, bye. You