HEATHER FINK: COMEDIAN/FILMMAKER/CAREGIVER - Surviving Quicksand

Comedian/Filmmaker/Caregiver HEATHER FINK came to filmmaking from comedy.  She has been making funny videos since she was a kid growing up in small town New Jersey. After earning a Philosophy degree from The George Washington University, she began NYU's Grad Film program as Writer/Director.  Heather has gone on to direct over 35 comedy short and has been featured on MTV, Dr. Phil, TV Guide Magazine and The Washington Post, to name a few. Most currently, she was featured in the LA Times with, as she said in her post on X, her “my most depressing interview and pull quotes ever!” talking about the residual affect ion her career following the SAG-AFTRA and WGAstrikes in 2023.  She currently pays the bills as a Sound Person for film and tv, including Marvel’s “Daredevil” and Hulu’s “The Dropout.”

Heather came to caregiving after her beloved father had a paralyzing stroke. Now, she is taking her life-altering story to the stage with her one-woman show, Quicksand, that chronicles how she navigated her role as a young caregiver after her dad’s stroke and the challenges she faced trying to keep herself from sinking. As Heather says, “From caregiving to death and the midlife crisis, QUICKSAND is a storytelling and clown exploration of the realest sh*t we face.” 

We chatted with Heather about the importance of creating a supportive community and shared our personal experiences with grief and loss, and the challenges of balancing personal storytelling with the need to connect with a wider audience in documentary filmmaking. 

Don and I had a truly fantastic, funny, and heartfelt exchange with this incredible lady and are sure you are going to enjoy our conversation with the one and only Heather Fink.

Transcript

Don Priess: 0:00

When the world has gotcha down, and Alzheimer's sucks. It's an equal opportunity disease that chips away at everything we hold dear. And to date, there's no cure. So until there is we continue to fight with the most powerful tool in our arsenal. Love. This is love conquers all is a real and really positive podcast that takes a deep dive into everything. Alzheimer's, The Good, the Bad, and everything in between. And now, here are your hosts Susie singer, Carter, and me, Don Priess

Susie Singer Carter: 0:39

Hello, everybody. I'm Susie singer Carter.

Don Priess: 0:42

And I'm Don Priess. And this is love conquers all calls. Hello, Susan.

Susie Singer Carter: 0:47

Hello, Donald. Summer.

Don Priess: 0:51

Oh, yes. We've been show.

Susie Singer Carter: 0:53

I've been watching show Shogun after everything. Yeah. On some kind of dogs that now. Yeah, they don't like that gives it some Alfie summer. Alfie summer, I'm gonna be the Shogun of my house.

Don Priess: 1:10

It's, it's such a neat, I don't know if anyone's seen it out there. And I'm sure a lot of people have but just, you know, to have to read almost the entire show. It's, it's a challenge. Because you can't go and you can't be on your phone while you're watching. There's a lot of

Susie Singer Carter: 1:27

there's a lot of cutting. There's a lot of me doing this. That there's a lot of that. Yeah, you can't. It's really It's it. I don't know what's compelling. It compelled me to finish it. But yeah. It's a good story. It is a good story. Yeah. So thank you all for coming and listening to us. Because we know you have other lot of other podcasts to listen to. But you know, we're happy that you're here. And, you know, we're happy that we continue to get amazing guests and people that are interesting, and you know, have different ways of looking at the subject matter that we talked about every week. And just a quick update on no country, for old people, we're we have just pretty much locked our picture. And we are very, very tired, and very proud of ourselves. And, you know, who knew that you have to do all this legal stuff for documentaries? You know? No, no, it is brutal. We had to go through every single frame of this three hour project and get clearance from what's called a fair use lawyer. So so that we don't get sued later on, and that the distribution doesn't get sued. And so we've done our due diligence, and also it's very expensive. So we're still raising money, folks, if you want to get a tax deduction. Bring it on, bring it on. Because various lawyers are very pricey. Yeah, very pricey. Oh,

Don Priess: 3:06

it too. Looks like Oh, I get to write you an email that will be $700 Yeah,

Susie Singer Carter: 3:12

I'm not even kidding you. But, you know, but

Don Priess: 3:15

they're really good. We there are terrific, so worth every penny I say

Susie Singer Carter: 3:20

worth every penny if they're if they ever listened to this. We're hoping for a thumbs up this time. Because yeah, because it's just getting too expensive. So anywho that's, that's what we're doing right now. And we're also beginning to to create what's called the Impact campaign. So this is because as you know, this is not just a movie, it's a movement. And we want to create a collective conscious shift in the way we think about our third act of life and and, you know, the long term care industry which is exactly what it is an industry that needs to shift very, you know, very quickly can because many, many people are suffering now as we speak as and we are all in this it's it's not just other people's problems, it's really all have our so it's super important and we still appreciate everyone's support. And if there's anybody out there that is an expert in creating a you know, a metoo movement kind of situation. You know, political activism, we're all in please contact us because we make movies, we don't know how to make movements, but we're gonna, we're there for you. We've got this great tool to educate the public and it will so help us get it out there and help us you know, make changes that are dire. Okay, I'm off my soapbox. Let's talk about Well done. Well.

Don Priess: 4:55

We'll move on to Yeah, we have a

Susie Singer Carter: 4:57

great guest who came to us like through via You know, we weren't even searching this and it just came to us like a gift.

Don Priess: 5:04

It's a miracle. Yeah. Shall I tell you all about her? Yes. Okay. Heather Finn came to filmmaking from comedy. She has been making funny videos since she was a kid growing up in small town, New Jersey. New Jersey, yeah, Jersey. I know. You're gonna like her even more now. Girl, I love it. After earning a philosophy degree from Georgetown University, she has gone on to direct over 35 comedy shorts. Heather has been featured on MTV, Dr. Phil TV Guide magazine and the Washington Post just to name a few. And now her real life story has led to a groundbreaking one woman show quicksand that chronicles her dad's paralyzing stroke, and the struggles to pull herself up from sinking. As Heather says from caregiving to death and the midlife crisis. Quicksand is a storytelling and cloud exploration of the realest shit we face. And we are very excited to hear more about this heartfelt project and everything in the world of the one, the only Heather Fink Hello, Heather.

Heather Fink: 6:14

Thank you so much for having me. And PS, I went to George Washington, not George Town, although that would have been nice. Oh, did

Don Priess: 6:21

I say Georgetown?

Heather Fink: 6:22

Well, you know, there are two George's that are both in DC. Yeah, they're quite competitive, although the one is Ivy and the one is not. So you

Susie Singer Carter: 6:31

went to was clearly better.

Don Priess: 6:35

It's got 100% More Washington than then Georgetown.

Heather Fink: 6:39

So you're absolutely right way America, Washington. Yes. It's such a pleasure to be honest with you. I clearly you're the film you're making. Can you tell me the title again,

Susie Singer Carter: 6:50

No Country for Old people, No Country

Heather Fink: 6:53

for Old people. I mean, it's beautiful. And the show that I'm making to dads have a long term purpose, not just, you know, making a lot of different parties feel less invisible for making caregiving less invisible to make eldercare less invisible, to having female breadwinners be less invisible. All these different things I want to give visibility to. And so I'm quite passionate about what you're saying. And I love for this to lead to the ability to change caregiving in the world.

Susie Singer Carter: 7:23

Let's do it. Yeah. I swear, you know, it really comes from storytelling. And it really comes, you know, I feel like we the power that we have as filmmakers and writers and directors that we can, you know, fashion a story to touch hearts. And that will resonate. Right. So it's, and I keep telling people that, you know, this problem in long term care has been around for decades for five decades to be exact. And, you know, and it's not like, it's not been talked about, you know, it's been, you know, it's frontline and CNN and you know, and John Oliver, and now all everybody's talking talked about it, but it doesn't resonate when it's just facts. So when you tell a story, like what you're doing with your with quicksand is, that's what that's when you reach people is when you touch their hearts, when it resonates, you know, it's it's and, you know, comedy. But so? And can I just preface before you get into because I can't wait to hear all about it. Is that this? You know, just wanted to clarify that, yes, your dad had a stroke, and it wasn't Alzheimer's. But in the long term care world, you know, there is so much ableism and ableism is directed at people with dementia, people with Parkinson's and people who have had strokes, because often, all three of those lose their ability to communicate. And when you don't have a voice, that's when you are so vulnerable. And that's why we were having Heather on because I want to talk about that, and how that she navigated that with her father, because I had that issue with my mom. And and I think it is, you know, that is the universal issues that the ableism ageism, and then the the vulnerability of not having a voice so,

Heather Fink: 9:14

yeah, tell

Susie Singer Carter: 9:14

us about you. I mean, you're very great. And obviously, you've done so much. And that's a whole nother podcast, I'd love to talk about what you've done as a filmmaker and a creator. But tell me about how quick Sam came about.

Heather Fink: 9:29

Well, you know, I am now 42 years old, and I have been trying to make it and we've gotten very, very close to a big break, like so close where I had investors in a film and then it fell through or I was hired to direct these two, you know, major TV shows, and then there was a merger and those shows got canceled. So I'm getting very, very close. And I've written maybe six different feature scripts. I've made one that didn't really have it. That wasn't my big break either. And so I've been struggling to tell my story for so long. And I wrote a feature film based on the things that my family went through. I always even though I specialize in comedy, because that's my favorite instinct. and I are, that's my strongest thing, instinct, my comedy instinct. But I always want to make things that give like a spoonful of sugar with the medicine. So I always want to deliver a message or something that I care about in every single story, I tell. So that's there for everything. But I've struggled for so long to try to figure out how to tell the story of what my family went through. And my first feature script I wrote about it, I think, is the worst script ever wrote, because it lacked objectivity. And so I've been for that, I wrote that in 2019. And I've been trying to figure out how to tell it. So I started developing it for television. And then I know that these things take forever to get made, if at all, and I just said, My dad passed in June. So it'll be about a year. And I was like, I just need to get this out. And so that's why I started doing a solo show. And one big part of the show that speaks to what you mentioned, about not being able to speak. And it's something that's depicted in the show that I tried to figure out through the television version and the stage version, which is that one of the deepest struggles I've had in my dad's life, after the stroke, and during his death, was that he couldn't talk and there would be no last words, you know, and I, I've been seeking those I can connect to and identify with on this. And I was like listening to Anderson Cooper's grief podcast, which is fantastic. And I recommend, and I'd been participating in death pathways, which if you don't know about them, I also really recommend this, but I could connect, it was very rare that anyone could speak to that feeling, that desire, that feeling of being like robbed of last words, and all of that, because it happened in 2010. He was for 13 years like that. And yeah, I'll stop if I'll keep going. If you run for I thought, you're gonna say something?

Susie Singer Carter: 12:15

Oh, no.

Heather Fink: 12:18

Okay, so it's called quick sound. Because organically I felt during this time that I kept thinking, and I kept trying to do something to pull myself up from it. But life and the situation and constant emergencies kept sort of pulling me down. And it's my desire to try to climb back out of that. And I thought for the television version, that there could be the surrealist space where, for example, my character could communicate with some version of her dad and have conversations with her dad, maybe it's like a puppet or a claymation version or something like that. So that is actually part of the show, I have made a puppet version of my father. And I do kind of play with that. There's some surreal stuff, like there's a storytelling sandwich in the show. And in the middle, I do some interesting theatrical themes with caregiving and, and weight, and my puppet. So that happens, but for the TV version, I just want there to be some sort of surrealist space to work through the emotional part of the story and make it something like the thing with film in our heart rate is you want to create an emotional response. You want to get to people who maybe maybe have gone through this or even have it to try to help them understand what it feels like. So that's kind of how I'm using like this quick sound surrealist space. And for the TV version, I liken it a bit to Ally McBeal, how she would like visualize all these, like dancing baby and things. So it's not exactly your dream states, but it's more the character can interact with things about how they're feeling inside. So yeah, that's what I like to do.

Susie Singer Carter: 13:58

It's great. It's like it's a great device to to work through a really hard situation. Right. So I think, yeah, I think that's really powerful. Because it is hard, because when you're thrown into a situation like that, like my mom was communicating and then due to what happened in 2022, you know, she ran to hospital got intubated, and then you know anybody even if you don't have Alzheimer's, you know, your ability to speak after being intubated is is impaired you need you know, therapy to get back get back to to my mom began to lose her ability to speak and I wasn't prepared for that either. And but we were so close that I, I had such a nonverbal communication with her, you know, I you know, I spent every time I was there I was I would do the dog and pony show the Suzy. I'm your daughter, dog and pony show, to keep, you know, to get in to open the doors. And we communicated as I'm sure you and your Dad, have you figured out a way? Right? Yeah. And I literally could make her laugh. I could make her swoon, I could make her throw kisses to me. Because she and I would see her look for words like she'd look up and I go, I know you're looking for the word. You're trying to get it. And I go, I'm here. I got time. Wait, wait, wait, you know. And, you know, there was one moment, and I'll say this, because I gave I had patience. And halfway through before, you know, it was like, six months at this chapter, when she went into the hospital and then died. About three months into it, she just looked at me with clarity and just went I love you like that, like fully articulated, like she was she ran a marathon to get those words out. And never again, they didn't come out again. But it was again, but you know, and I feel your pain, because I had to go through walking her out the door without hearing how she felt about it.

Heather Fink: 16:06

Right. Yeah, I mean, it really is a deeply hard thing. And I know that there's other people out there going through, which I think is why you make a podcast, like I'm making the show, you're making the movie, we do these things to try to connect. So that I mean, the feeling is that you want to make something because for all the suffering or tragedy, you want it to have been worth something, you know, you want to do something with it. So and you know, like I said, there isn't there wasn't Alzheimer's in my family. But aside from my dad's stroke, also my grandmother, and my dad's older brother was schizophrenic. And so and they have well, my grandmother lived with us when I was a teenager. And so I've had a lot of people who aren't all that they're present in their mind. And you talk about those moments of clarity. And I can remember, like, very rare few moments where you could actually connect and how intense and how you'll always remember those moments for the rest of your life. And so my dad, I think, you know, he had a decent amount of comprehension, although he had a hyper emotive state where he would either laugh or cry more easily. Like, for example, you know, we tried so hard to still bring him stuff. So you could have, we could all have a good life. And we took him to the ballet at Lincoln Center. And he was, he laughed, you laughed at her ballet dancers. And then he laughed at how inappropriate it was to laugh. So he laughed so hard, we had to like pull him out of the valley. Which is, I think, to me, like any like real good ballet, very ridiculous. So we had to pull him out those, but those kinds of kinds of things happen. And then more recently, you know, something happened with my mom or my mom has always been like, sharpest line, she was nicknamed the Bulldog at work. And she was recently, really in a really bad way, a victim of romance scammers who came, like they target widows, it's really bad. And even then I felt for the first time in my life, like my mom wasn't with it mentally, like just trying to get through to her. And this is something I've been dealing with this past few months. And it's been fairly devastating. But that thing where your loved one, there's like something where you're not connecting, it hurts, it's really

Susie Singer Carter: 18:18

hard. Very hard. It's a big loss. It's it's it is little, they're little deaths along the way, you know, we have to come to come to terms with you know, and so you grieve them as quickly as possible. And then you go to the next new normal, the next new normal.

Heather Fink: 18:40

Yes, yes, it's that next new normal? What's that accepting with? For example, you know, you almost I know some people, of course, have both parents will be sick at the same time. And I don't know, I guess I was naive to think I could really compartmentalize it, okay, when dad passes, we can focus on mom, and she can be free from being intense caregiver again, and do all these nice things. And then I realized, Oh, my God, she's so vulnerable and needs help. And I need to think about, you know, maybe I need to move back. My mom's in New Jersey, and maybe I need to move back. Maybe we'll live in New York City area together, somebody like making a plan in that way, you know, all that stuff that I'm recalibrating, once again, you know, it's that recalibration, it's that feeling of that sinking in quicksand, but if I can be prepared for it, although usually can't really prepare for these things. No,

Susie Singer Carter: 19:28

you can just prepare for being unprepared. Is that right? So you just know that things are going to happen that you're not going to expect and like how can you you know, be resilient to it and you know, and also acknowledge your own your own journey, which is difficult. So you you know, that's I think for me like being always wanting to be strong for my mom, and and coming in with the best face my dog and pony show and not wanting to make her feel like she's making me feel sad, because I know she wouldn't like that. So I would try to always be stoic, but you have to honor your own, you know, journey through it. Which, you know, in part of, I think what you're doing, you know, like, like, even like, I wouldn't say that this film, I wouldn't do my film as a way to, to come to, to grips with my mother's, you know, this, the last chapter of her life, that it's too much work and too hard. But on the other hand, you know, it's really for a bigger purpose. But it does help you put it into perspective, and to look at it with, you know, a more objective eye, if you can't, you know, it as objective as we can be with it. Right. But I think that it does it. It certainly doesn't, I don't think make it worse. I think if anything, it helps you, you know, process.

Heather Fink: 21:02

Absolutely, in every step of writing, this show has been harder than anything I've ever done before. Because even if I've written things that were inspired by my life or reality, it was never about my life. And so you have this, like pressure to honor that you you have the same thing like to honor this huge subject you care so much about and your your actual family member, you know, that's a lot of pressure, you're like, Oh, my God, how do I how do I even put something like this into words? How do I take the stories I've told over and over again about my life to other people in conversation, and actually serve it up? How do I summarize? You know, it, to maintain

Don Priess: 21:42

their their dignity? You know, because you're talking about things that maybe, you know, hard when you're talking about, you know, your loved one and how they would feel if they, you know, I mean, obviously, he still had his mental capacity. So, you waited till it was all you wouldn't started writing during this did how'd you or maybe you did, I don't, I

Heather Fink: 22:02

did, because I always had this desire to, like they were so there's such a deep loneliness in suffering through anything by yourself that you feel people can't relate to. So I always had a desire to depict, I wanted people to understand better, I wanted them to understand better what it's like, to really live with a wheelchair, like wouldn't be getting the caregiving like, look what the dressing was, like, what a stroke actually is, because we didn't know how to spot one. And if I can tell your audience real quick how to spot a stroke FASD T, fast Face drooping arm weakness, speech, difficulty time to call 911 Immediately, the only thing you can do is get to the hospital to snap a stroke immediately. My mom didn't know he was having a stroke, because she thought it was a heart attack. She tried to give him an aspirin, that kind of thing. So we didn't even know that that was a direct. I know that maybe other people know this, but high blood pressure stroke. So watch out for that. And also for me that he was healthy, very healthy. And other Aside from this, and it was his sleep apnea that caused his high blood pressure. So snoring can lead to a stroke and people should know, they should know because this is devastating. What happened. Yeah,

Don Priess: 23:18

I it's something I have. And yeah, it's I've heard you know, you hear it, you hear it, but yeah, you'd never think oh, yeah, but that's not well just monitor your blood pressure. Just monitor and I do and I do. Yeah. And it's under control right now. So that's your information. It's not like if you snore, you're gonna have a stroke. It's more watch out for your blood pressure. If

Susie Singer Carter: 23:44

I think if you snore, other people are gonna have a stroke, because you're

Don Priess: 23:49

exactly keeping them from because they won't sleep.

Heather Fink: 23:53

Yeah, and that was it. I mean, my dad is so crazy, but so that had been I mean, you know, it is one of those things where it's like, he knew right he drank in moderation, smoke he was he did exercise and stuff and it's still you know, he got it got really bad so that and then we're stressing the fact that he was all this other stuff going on, but either way that was to me and you talked about little duck like that happened when I was 29 years old 2010 And that was actually for me harder to deal with his stroke than his passing because I guess it was like the introduction to intense loss you know, the loss of his physical identity the way that he's role as father with his physical mobility but more than that physical mobility it really was him not being able to talk anymore. I you know, it's funny the things you think about like I realized there's this like two levels of missing like yesterday, I just saw this image of really gorgeous chocolate chip cookies, and I missed To my dad's chocolate chip cookies, but those are from before, like, that's from when they're, you know, 14 years ago that he could last make his chocolate chip cookies. So this is an old nothing, it's not the data had later it was making these and it's strange how the death has made me reconcile with the old version of the way dad and with the other, like, there's these two versions and I get it.

Susie Singer Carter: 25:26

I talk about because I became mommy towards the end. And and I really, like I vote my mom was always my, my best friend and I loved her and admired her and just had a ball with her. And, but in that last stages, like, it was like she was my daughter and I fell in love with her like a mother would to a child because I am a mother. And and I miss, like I missed fiercely what you're talking about in the beginning because it was a 16 year you know, journey with Alzheimer's. I did have those deaths and missed all those things. But once I you know, transitioned into mommy with my mom, I miss that mommy, I missed that one that I took care of the most. And and because it was such a pure, she was so pure and so vulnerable. And like doing the documentary and looking at her face that that we have to edit all the time. And I always tell dawn I missed that face. You know, and and that's not her face. It's not the face that I grew up with. It's the face that I helped shepherd and yeah,

Heather Fink: 26:45

you just made me think of this feeling I had you know, I'm sure you've had many times you had to go to the hospital over and over again. And you just remind me this feeling was of going to the hospital and like looking for my dad's room because it was like a new thing so I didn't know where his room was and like you know when you like scan through all the rooms and all the beds and all the faces that you don't know and then you like land on when it's your first than those eyes like that that moment in the hospital where you're like looking at all this seems strange faces and you like random more person? They're not strange and there's like something about that. That feeling? I don't know. Yeah, but face and what they are like, I mean, my dad, that's all they had. You can do. Yes. No. Okay. Mostly everything was was said with the word. Okay. And we did the guessing game the dog and pony show you mentioned like, the guessing game was just such a big part of our life. But he made jokes. I mean, my favorite joke used to make because he would like hide behind an object that was obviously too small like hide behind the coffee mug like it was so cute. He was using what he had you know, he was using right could do and he would make jokes and sometimes you know, I remember the first father's day after the stroke like how much I resented it like I was so like upset because I it was too much like the instant movement from my big strong dad to this like someone who was cute. Or in Bihar, like this idea of like old person is cute. It was something that was so like, I wasn't ready for it. I didn't like it. I didn't like people talking to my dad or looking at my dad or, or thinking about our parents like cute people. It's like a dismissive kind of thing that. I mean, it bugs me about old people and older people in general how, you know, people act like they're just these adorable or fragile or feeble things. It's like, you don't know how badass this person might have been? Like, you don't know what, like Miss Harrison could have been an actual gangster like you have no idea.

Susie Singer Carter: 28:54

I think about that all the time. I used to I used to my mom was an amazing singer. And I had all of her tracks and she had a she had a deal at Capitol Records side all these songs from the 60s that she did and when she recorded there and I would play them because people would just do that like to humanize her and she became just a great lump, right? And so I would play the music every time I was there and people would walk by and go, who is that? Singing? I go that's her the lady in bed. That one that amazing woman because people forget and and just just to backtrack on how I felt about my mom towards the end. As my child it's not infantilizing her it was more about knowing the stage that she was at and giving her grace to be at that stage and it's okay, and that I was there for her. And then I wanted to give her dignity, but I had to respect the stage that she was at physically, cognitively and spiritually. Right. So And then and, and that is a hard thing to do, because we don't want to, you know, my mom was fierce, and was independent and, you know, just a force of nature. And so to see her I still saw that in her no one else would have, but I saw it. But you know, but I also had to allow her the respect to to let her be where she was. And even though I missed that other mom fiercely Yeah, absolutely, very, it's very, it's very complicated.

Heather Fink: 30:33

I completely understand that feeling. Like, interestingly, I guess, maybe because it was my dad that had stroke, I felt this immediate thing, and my family tried to buck up and be the dad, but I had to just take, I just tried to take care of stuff and show up in that way. I mean, it really like very literal ways, like my dad loved garden gardening. And when my dad was in the acute rehab center after the stroke, I went home, and I went, like out of this huge garden in New Jersey, and I like went up sort of like, Alright, I'm gonna do this thing. No idea, like, looked at it. And I was like, Okay, I have no idea. I don't know what any of those things were popping about a gun, like, I'm just gonna try to fake something else. But I do think that my mom and my sister have sort of said as much that about the role that I've taken. We that, you know, we're you parental fi, I guess is another term I've heard, where I'm kind of like, okay, how can I step in? Now? How can I take care of business and sort things out? And that part of it I could handle where I'm like, okay, what can I do to help the situation, I can handle that the harder part is more recently, with my mom being ruined scammed, and us not being able to get through to her. Which we have finally gotten through to her, which is great, but just the thought of, I didn't like signing Power of Attorney for my dad, but we needed to I didn't like that we had to do that, that mentally thinking like, they acknowledge that, you know, paper acknowledgement of diminished capacity. But then we explored that for a minimum. And that was to me, like, that's a bridge too far. Like, yeah, I do. Like, she's definitely like with it on so many levels. she's not, she's not a little old lady. Like, I just hate that. She's vulnerable. She's not her full self that she was. But she is with it in so many ways. And she just needs to grieve not just the loss of laid out. But she really, you know, this happened when she was 60 years old. And she was working in New York City as this, like very active business woman and and loved her life. She loved working and being a part of New York City and all that goes with it, and to grieve that sudden loss becoming a full time caregiver. And so she needs to reconcile and work through all that stuff. And I really think she has hoped to get herself back because she doesn't have an actual condition other than being like a truck read over her heart.

Don Priess: 33:08

You know, real thing. I mean, it is.

Susie Singer Carter: 33:11

I mean, it's, there's nothing more devastating. I mean, this is a whole life is like, shifted in, in a in a flat one second, you know, it's like, I lost my dad when I was 16. And he died in a plane crash. And it was, like I say, you know, like, I've had experiences of both. So I had my mom who was took 16 years to exit. And my father who was ripped out of life, I that's how it feels like he was at the top of his career in the music industry, and flying a plane back from Mexico City, and he crashed, and he died. Just like that. And, and, you know, so there's, there's all different kinds of losses. And, you know, for your mom, like the lifestyle is, so it's, it's huge. I mean, that is a death. So all those deaths that happen, right, so your lifestyle, your, your, your perspective, your perception of yourself, and how you fit into this world, as as a wife, so now she's not a wife anymore. All of those things, and then now she's 13 years old or older. Right? And, you know, I know like, I'm hitting a stage where I'm going, wow. So I have I, you know, Flink in your 90 And it's like, whoa, so, you know, 13 years is a long time. And now your mom needs to reconcile that and how does she you know, she's not going to get those 13 years back. So how does she make the best of what is coming? Right knowing that that is not either, you know, we all are by the grace of God. So I get it where your mom is going through. It's a tremendous amount of, you know, loss and and responsibility to herself to to get to figure out how to get back on track if it's possible, if possible. I

Heather Fink: 35:09

think it is possible. We just got her knees replaced because her knees were worn out by caregiving. And then I messed up my knee, I mean, then helping her. I mean, it was a combination of that. And my knees were already worn from working on set, because it's physically brutal. But there's like this cycle of, you know, there was I just so thankful though, that my mom survived this because my mom's mother died caregiving for my oha. So we were all set, we had an intervention with her months before my dad passed, like all of my mom's from Holland. And it was like all her brothers and sisters, and we sat down with her, like, you can't keep going like this, like, you're gonna burn out. We don't want you to go like you're like, oh, Lon. And, you know, it was a kind of thing, right? I wanted my dad to pass and I wanted him to pass peacefully, because this was just, to me what my mom was trapped in. And what my dad was trapped in, was devastating. However, it was interesting that despite how difficult life was, my dad was really fighting to not go like he was really, in his death, the time of his death, you could see him really trying to stay with us, which was a beautiful thing. So I was very, like, been off the death process. But yeah, it was amazing.

Don Priess: 36:27

Well, then that's you should feel be you know, then that's because of you and your mom, you know, he had something to live for Still, despite everything, he still had something to live for. Because you were giving him that life. You were you know, you were you were providing him that love and something to hold on to. So I do have a question when because Susie will tell you that when her mom was first diagnosed, she she thought she was going to fix it. She thought she was going to you know, just by sheer Well, she was going to fix this. We're going to conquer this. Was there ever that feeling because I mean with yours? It's a fit, you know, with Alzheimer's. It's a progressive thing. This was like bam, now, and the doctors, I'm sure gave you what the prognosis was. Did you ever feel that? No, we're gonna, I'm gonna fix this thing. Oh,

Heather Fink: 37:12

yes, we did. For years, we fought so hard because with strokes, physical speech and occupational therapy are three therapies you can go through to get certain things back. And there's a certain time window where people can get things back, they can get their speech back, they can get their mobility back, they can get their motor skills back. But with my dad's case, God did we fight for it, the things that we did. We took every kind of therapy, everyone's had just all these things, and you're Vikings and every it's extensor then you try so hard. We haven't even tried to let my dad drive again. She put him in the cars and empty parking. We'd like and she had random emergency. I mean, she we did all of it. Like my mom, especially pork did not give up fighting like we tried to take them places where it was obviously insane. To have a very, like partially very like a lot of him paralyzed man on an airplane airplanes are not very accessible. They just really aren't and we guarded but we took him to France to Holland cruise. We tried all this stuff and all I got all of it. Every time was devastating because they everything that says it's handicap accessible. Most of the time, 75% of the time, it really isn't like, Oh, you didn't think this these steps here like we're gonna be a problem for the wheelchair. Like, how is it like there's not bars in this bad or like stuff that seems really basic are often just oh yeah, let's try a beach wheelchair. Well, my dad, you know, his digestive system was also partially paralyzed. So he was huge. He was already six foot one. So if you've ever tried like pushing a frickin beach wheelchair over the dudes, the Jersey Shore Oh. Always think that it seems so nice. But I knew it was just such a struggle to enjoy things still. But we bought we tried. And yes, we tried very hard to get things back. Well, this is one other little thing that I always think about was in the parking lot at there. It was the Kessler rehab center in Chester, New Jersey. I was like fresh off his stroke. And I said to the nurse in theory, you know, my dad and I we always like, I move a lot in New York City and rebuild furniture, like build a key together. Do you think you'll ever be able to do that again? And she gave me this look in my life like oh, no, never but she was? Yeah, sure. Sure. You never know. It was the know in her eyes. And it was I probably knew the answer, but I had something about letting go of that. Because we burned in so much doing that I had to let go of it. I had until I just asked her. Yeah,

Susie Singer Carter: 40:03

yeah, no, I get it. I get it. It happens with every like, you know, I remember the first person that really laid out the truth to me about Alzheimer's was Leeza Gibbons. And Lisa was like, she was a friend of a friend. So this was like, 16 years ago, we went to lunch. And she said, I know it doesn't seem like it's going to progress, but it's going to progress. And I know that, you know, you're not going to know it, and you're going to turn around and you're, you've lost a whole nother part of her. So and she was the one that encouraged me to take photos and videos, so I don't forget. And, you know, and, and I remember sitting at lunch thinking, yeah, that's your mom, that's not gonna be my mom. My mom said, it's not gonna happen to my mom. I just thought it was everyone else's mom, or dad, you know, it wasn't gonna happen to my mom, because it's different. But you know, then we quickly realized that we are not, you know, Superman and Superwoman. And we are gonna, we're gonna have to put on our cape in a different way. And, you know, and deal with what we've got. So wow, you're, you're very raw right now. I feel it.

Heather Fink: 41:17

Yeah. And there's a couple of things you said? Well, the superhero thing I always think of, say that I think caregivers are the real superheroes of the world. You know, they bring on their pet on their backs and their shoulders. And there was something else you said about the recording, there's an actual line in my show about, you know, how, what I went through with my dad made me realize I have to record things, I don't lose them, because I really didn't have. I mean, it was 2010. So like, smartphones didn't come until a couple years after that. So I don't, it really didn't have a recording of his voice or talking of the soul.

Susie Singer Carter: 41:51

I know, I know, when my dad too, because, you know, my dad Oh, so long ago, and I was like, you know, I mean, he was such a technophile, we had, you know, eight millimeters and stuff like that, and, you know, Super Eight or whatever it was at the time, but, you know, I haven't heard my dad's voice since I'm 16. So I, I've missed that so much. And, and he had one of those, like, you walk into a room and you know, he's there kind of guy, you know, and he's like, this big booming masculine guy with, you know, tons of charisma and you're just like, I wish I could just hear that voice because it's been so long. You had I feel like especially

Heather Fink: 42:30

like your mom being a recording artists and your dad having you have those, but you're filming the wrong thing, like you're filming this beach film Uribe? June.

Susie Singer Carter: 42:37

I know. It there's a quick anecdote, I went to take all my mom's vinyl and had it digitized. And I went to you know, a there's the this legendary master who masters from records and are mastered onto records called Bernie Grundmann. And it turns out that my father was his mentor, I didn't know that my father was was very big in that industry. And when I was there, they were still using my father's equipment. And so Bernie Grundmann will happen to be there. And he came to tell me all about my dad, like all these anecdotes, and how all this how bigger than life he was. And he was saying, he was explained to me because I said, I said, it's so odd, because I don't understand. Here's my father who invented the conversion from mono to stereo was one of the top engineers of his day, and I do not understand how the sound gets into the vinyl like, go I do not understand it. So Bernie was trying to tell me it's just like your eardrum, it's all you know, pulses. And the pulse goes into the to the cutter and the cutter puts those pulses into the vinyl. Right? And he said, and at the time when your dad was doing it and he was teaching me said You know, it's very, it's very sensitive, it picks up all sounds so at that time, you have to be very quiet. Well, my he goes, have you ever do you ever remember your father being quiet? No. So and he said, there's so many times where he would be talking and it would get into the recording that they were like mastering onto the value. And I said you have to find those for me because I haven't heard his voice in so long. But I so I haven't been able to follow up with him and get it but I know His voice is out there on some vinyl. That would be such a it would be like strange, and I don't know, it just would be incredible, but I understand what you're saying. So tell us about your show. Where is it? It's opening in June?

Heather Fink: 44:31

Yes, it's in June at the Hollywood Fringe Festival. So there's five shows this June at the Hudson theatres, um, which is there. It's on Santa Monica Boulevard. And it's also I booked an accessible theater that was important to me. And and the first show well, the preview is June 8, and then I believe it's the fifth to the 23rd, the 27th and the 29th. It's mostly weekends, but there is one Thursday the 27th and Yeah, so part of Hollywood fringe, you can look up quick sound Hollywood. If you I think if you just Google quicksand Hollywood Fringe Festival, or quicksand, and my name Heather Fink, you'll find a link to buy ticket. That's

Susie Singer Carter: 45:13

great. No, I'm definitely, we're definitely gonna go and see you are you going to record it, you're gonna have somebody record it,

Heather Fink: 45:21

I am going to record it. I thought about having a live stream, but I decided against it because the show is first of all, so intimate. And I really look at this show as a first run, like, I want to do it more, I want to bring it to New York, I want to make it even longer because I have a couple of musical numbers that we're spending time. And this is an hour, so I love it. So I just want to keep developing and doing it more. And this to me feels like a first run beginning of something. And because it's five shows that I really liked, I hope to fill those seeds. But I know for friends, it's normal to do that many shows. I hoped to maybe go to the Edinburgh Fringe, which is like the big center of the Fringe Festival next year. Yeah, so I just want to keep developing and doing more and more and hearing from audience hearing from people who've been through this, like doing you feel seen in this. What do you want to know more about? I want to hear from people as well. And I hope to make this a television show. And I want to incorporate so as much of this world through this. What would be a family instead of drama idiom calling it a trauma?

Susie Singer Carter: 46:25

Comedy, that's so great. To comedy. That's great.

Don Priess: 46:31

Is there is there anything as we as we've been working on the documentary, you know, we there's so much you know, it's obviously about Susie's mom. And there's some moments and you know that Suzy just like can you please fast forward through that. And we've had, she's had to compartmentalize and I have to because I was very close with her mom, just so we can get through it and really treat it like it's like this? Or is there certain parts, either as you were writing or as you're rehearsing, performing, that consistently hit you? And how do you deal with that? You just use it? Or you just say, No, I gotta put that aside, and, and what are you gonna be enough to tell me all of them?

Heather Fink: 47:07

Well, yes, absolutely writing it. And the crazy part too, is that there's so much because I can't have the show be too long. That's not pleasant for the listener, or for the audience. So I do have to pick and choose. And I'm caught a lot of stories and stories that I feel are essential. And I've really focused it down to what I think are the most important focuses for the show. But as I was writing it, getting it out. It's such a normal thing as a creative or a writer that when you write anything, you'll beat yourself up, you'll get this self doubt thing that goes, Oh, this isn't good. Or this is hard, or it's not coming out, right? Or what business do I have the data, you go through all that stuff. So I knew that that was familiar when I started facing that. But in this it was even more like I was procrastinating big time. And it was like either you have now write the scene, write the scene, because so much. If I were to tell you specifics, I'll tell you what I actually tell him the show is stuff that's gonna be hard every time I tell the actual story of his death, I tell it very specifically, because I don't think natural death is depicted, I just don't think it's depicted much at all in a real way. You know, murders and bang, bang, you get shot kind of deaths are depicted. So I do tell the story of his death. And I tell the story of his stroke. And I also give a lot of backstory of myself and my family, because part of the concept of quicksand is how we lose ourselves in these things. So I want to sort of set up, okay, here's who we were, here's who I was on. And I want to ask the question of like, Am I still that person? Have I lost we always talk about, you know, as we get older, or I'm not that person anymore, but like what parts of us still really are always are, what parts are lost or what parts? What is actually game like that we've grown. So I asked a lot of those kinds of questions. But I cut out some of my really favorite super fun stories from my own life too, because I was like, the point of anything I'm going to share about myself has to be the story of my own life's personal goal. So I'm going to tell you about that stuff. I'm going to cut this other stuff out. And then with my parents and my dad, I sort of did want to set up what was going on in our lives before that. And I want to tell you the story of the stroke, but part of the roof. Okay, so one thing I'll say is I sort of do this clown like, demonstration of caregiving, which I think you can imagine could easily lend itself to common care caregiving for someone's eye. That's something that I do, because I think rather than tell you all of these specific stories, I will rather take you into the emotional healing we're doing. So I've sort of summarized some of the stories because I'm mindful of audience I'm mindful of they're getting something out of it instead of just like exhausting them with like this happened this happened this happened. But so because the answer your question about what's been hard to get through, it's so hard talking about yourself and trying to summarize yourself, period, whether it's the happy moments or the sad Romans and owning up to your own, like midlife crisis career failures in the entertainment industry. I mean, that's doesn't feel great. But I think it's worthwhile because I know other people connect, I think even super successful people feel like failures in this business, because it's designed to make you feel inadequate. It's design, though.

Susie Singer Carter: 50:39

Yeah, yeah, I relate to it. Even in the documentary, I knew that we had to establish my relationship with my mom and who I was at before and who and what my life, like, being one of the, one of the people in the the was there was the chaplain from hospice came in, wrote wrote about me, in the notes in the medical records, saying, you know, this poor girl has dedicated her entire life to her mother, and, you know, I'm so worried about what will happen after her what her life will be, like, after her mother dies. And I was so offended by that because of her, you know, shallowness to even write something like that. I didn't, that my fear was that is there anybody out there that would think that I was this helicopter daughter, I wasn't a helicopter daughter, I had a life, I have children, I have a career I, I dance I, I do that, you know, and I wanted to show that I'm a full person. And then I was watching it, you know, in our first cut, and I'm like, Oh, my God cut me out. There's too much of me. It's like too much. Right? And, and, you know, there is the, the coming to Jesus kind of like, you know, looking at yourself and going, you know, is that important? Where, what, how does it support the message we're trying to make, and that is very difficult, from, you know, our perspective as writers and creators, and then the people who are, are, you know, deeply enmeshed in this narrative, you know, so it is, it is quite a challenge. And I understand that what you're saying completely 100% and it's very delicate. It's a delicate dance. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

Heather Fink: 52:27

There isn't gonna moment like of jokes I cut out, I had sort of like a joking moment about my, I mentioned the scamming of my moment, too raw for me to hate it. I don't want to make fun of it. So sorry, audience, you're not getting that laugh. Like I'm, I'm not giving recall, as personal as it can be what we're doing. Very

Susie Singer Carter: 52:48

personal. And, you know, and I do think that, you know, I'll credit Phil Rosenthal, I got to saw I saw him talk, my friend, moderated a talk with him, who was the showrunner many things. But you know, everyone loves Raymond. And he talks about how, you know, universality is in the details. And so, you know, I always remembered that, because when I was doing my mom and the girl, which was my, my film about my mom for Alzheimer's, I kept that in mind was very much in my forefront, thinking that, you know, oh, is this is anyone going to relate to this? This is our story. It's so it's so nuanced to our relationship to our life. And then I remember him saying that, that that, you know, that the universality is in the details. And that's how you reach people. So you have to have, and he's right. So you have to have faith in that. And, you know, and we saw that firsthand, like, Don, and I did the festival circuit with that film. And, you know, it was tremendously successful. And we, we, and besides

Don Priess: 53:53

being in the edit bay, we're like, is anyone care gonna care about this? Does this relate to anybody? And we were like, we weren't, we did not know.

Susie Singer Carter: 54:02

I didn't know I just had to be truthful and tell the story. And I wanted to make sure that I showed, you know, that trauma 80 of it, like you said, I was totally stealing that now, Heather, I love it so much. I will credit you,

Don Priess: 54:14

you can license it from her.

Susie Singer Carter: 54:15

I love it. I had to show the tragedy of it because there was so much comedy mom and I related with comedy, you know, and that's what I loved about Valerie Harper was that she had that lovely balance of heart empathy and, and the funny bone you know, and and it was like the perfect she was the perfect person to play this role. But you know, I had to lean into that and say that those those moments are what will touch people even if it's not what happened to them. It's the authenticity of it.

Heather Fink: 54:51

I was I can't wait to see your film. I have to see that. It sounds like you're both. I love that. I have to tell you this my family Interview I've done because it's so rare that you get to connect both on like the caregiving and elder care elements, but also that we're creatives and we are, we're trying to take what has happened to us and our hearts and not just make something of it that's useful, but it's maybe something that's useful to others, you know, so that we learn, we can connect. And that is such a beautiful quote about, you know, the the universality, the universality being in the details. That's always true for comedy, you know, the more specific, like a joke or detail is, the more someone can laugh, because even if it's not their detail, it can be next to their personal details. I wrapped up my real, yeah, authentic, it's real, like, the more specific the more real. Yeah, so I would love love to see your film. And there is that thing that like when you say something, or it's just you buy or there's something that's very isolating about a solo show, that's like in my head for so long, like the first time i There is one other, there's a quicksand fairy that is coming into the middle of the show. But that's there's one or there person. And when I ran lines with her for the first time, I had was that satisfying, like, Oh, thank God. We're having probably the more fun part of the show. But yeah, it really does feel like a lot. And there's been moments where I, it's weird to retell the story of your dad stuff out in great detail over and over again. And that's a weird thing to do. Yes, and it's probably weird, like showing these clips from your life, you know, over and over. I don't think we detached from it, though.

Susie Singer Carter: 56:35

I can't attach but we can compartmentalize. That's what I do. Yeah. You know, because I, my biggest fear was my whole life is my mom dying my whole life. Like, we used to laugh about it, she'd go, Well, don't worry about it. Because we don't die. We're not dying. You and I are not dying this week goes, We're not going to do it. We joke around about it, you know, and like, but if anything happens to Susie, I'll be jumping in right after you. So don't worry, you know, we there was that kind of thing. And when I when it was coming, and I kept telling the doctors, she's not ready to die. And but I said I'll know because we communicate, I will know when she's done. I know that 100% And I had to, you know, woman up, you know, for lack of a better term, to be there for my mom and let her know that I was I was you know, I was okay with it. Because she knew what a big baby I was about it. And I wanted to not be the big baby. I wanted to be strong for her and me. And you know, the last thing I say in the final narrate the voiceover in the film is that you taught me how to live and now you're taught me how to die. And I watched her die so beautifully. And, and I'm glad I didn't. I'm glad that I was the one. And I'm glad that I got you know, I got in I'd like took all the tubes out and laid down next to her and cuddled on her and loved on her. And it was one of my favorite moments. It's one of my best memories. And I'm glad I had that time to do that. And so important, and I just felt proud of myself. I'm proud of my mom. We are like well lived in for her being such a badass, strong girl for the last six months. And I told her You did such a good job. I'm so proud of you.

Heather Fink: 58:25

It's really wild. Like how, like, I love you. I mean, not hearing you say how much the death was beautiful and meaningful and powerful to you for you. Like that's what I experienced too. And I do wish people would talk more about that because it was miraculous when I felt I witnessed so

Susie Singer Carter: 58:46

agreed and I loved my mom more than anything and I it was my biggest fear. Like I used to just go I can't I can't I can't and I had a guest on about two years before on our show who's still my friend now and and Trish love and I adore her and she went she's very strong empathetic woman who is you know close to like a death doula and wrote books about it and and she told me on my podcast before my mom died, you know, I wasn't even thinking of her dying yet. But I just said I don't even like to think about it is going to be my hardest thing in the life. She said it's going to be beautiful. You're going to be strong and you were going to get through it because I see you and I had that in the back of my mind the whole time. And if it wasn't for her framing it that way for me. I don't know if I would have been able to view it like that but I went into it because she I really trusted this woman and no thought it's going to be what it is it's going to be as beautiful as a birth. Is this death

Heather Fink: 59:52

that's amazing. I mean, I don't know people who are death doula is that is such a beautiful thing for anyone listening to know that your death a death can be beautiful. Or nonviolent, that should

Susie Singer Carter: 1:00:03

be it. Yeah. It's a it is an art. It's honor. It's it's, it's spiritual, it's a transition. And in if anything, it should be the most dignified thing that you can go through if you do if at all possible because it is your it is your moment your exit should be spectacular. You know, I made the room as beautiful as I could in the hospital, I put, you know, everything I could I didn't know how to do anything I just did from my gut, you know, and I just tried to make it as peaceful and loving and warm and safe. So now let's go cry because now I feel like I did a little I got a little teary eyed. Very emotional now. I love to having you on. This was so great. I can't wait to see your show. And I'm wishing you so much success with it. I know you're gonna have great success because it's coming from a really good place. It's coming from love. That's what our shows. This really is.

Don Priess: 1:01:10

Yes, it is. Do you know why Susan? Why I do but tell. And that's well that's because love is powerful. Love is contagious, and love conquers all we do. Thank everyone for watching and listening today. Please if you're in the LA area in June go check out quicksand with Heather Fink Ben and as Suzy said we can't wait to see it cannot land and and like share or all those good things. Subscribe to our podcast so more people can hear it. And we will absolutely see you next time. Take care.

Heather Fink: 1:01:45

Thank you both so much.