ASHTON APPLEWHITE (TED Speaker/Spokesperson For Anti-Ageism): AGEISM IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH

My co-host, Don Priess, and I had the distinct pleasure of speaking with, Ashton Applewhite,  the internationally acclaimed spokesperson for the emerging movement to raise awareness of ageism and to dismantle it.  A co-founder of the Old School Anti-Ageism Clearinghouse, she has been recognized by the New York Times, The New Yorker, National Public Radio, and the American Society on Aging as an expert on ageism. She speaks widely at venues that have included the TED main stage and the United Nations, has written for Harper’s, the Guardian, and the New York Times, and is the voice of Yo, Is This Ageist? She has been named as a Fellow by The New York Times, Yale Law School, and the Royal Society for the Arts.

In 2016,  Ms. Applewhite joined the PBS site Next Avenue’s annual list of 50 Influencers in Aging as their Influencer of the Year.  In 2022, she appeared on HelpAgeUSA’s inaugural 60 Over 60 List and on Fe:maleOneZero’s first international edition of 40 over 40 – The World’s Most Inspiring Women, and received the Maggie Kuhn Award from Presbyterian Senior Services.

Ms. Applewhite is also the author of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well, described by Ms. magazine as “rocket fuel for launching new lives.” As the pseudonymous author of the Truly Tasteless Jokes series, she was the first person to have four books on the New York Times best-seller list and was a clue on “Jeopardy."
 
 Connect with Ashton Applewhite:
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Email: ashton@thischairrocks.com

If someone you love experienced neglect in a nursing home…Then you know how desperately the system needs to change.  History has shown us that It takes people power to change anything worthwhile. That’s why we we’re launching something that’s never been done before. On September 27, communities across the country are coming together for the first-ever National Long-Term Care Reform Day.This is a peaceful national walk for dignity, accountability, and change in long-term care.We’r

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Susie Singer Carter: 1:07

Hi, everybody, it's Susie singer Carter. And I just wanted to take a minute to tell you about a wonderful product I just discovered. It's called CRV. And so CRV in Latin means to share and unite. It is the simplest way for older adults and people with disabilities to connect and engage with their family and friends. There's no username, no password, no login and no app to choose from. It's just a dedicated device. It's the sosiale C to M connect to me device it's always on and ready to use. And families and caregivers just install the app on their smartphone. And then you can just begin sending photos, videos, and even have live live video chats and your loved ones. They don't have to do anything. They just love it. And because all of us must fight elder abuse and work together to bring awareness to this issue. Sociology is supporting my efforts to produce my vital documentary, No Country for Old people. When you subscribe to sociology for your loved ones, they will donate the payments received and you can help us reach our goal while connecting with your loved ones in the simplest way CCRB connecting generations made simple globally. To learn more, please visit their website at www sociavi.com. And when choosing the payment, select the annual subscription, the proceeds will go to help the production of our documentary, No Country for Old people and I thank you so much. When the world has got shut down

Don Priess: 2:37

and Alzheimer's sucks, it's an equal opportunity disease that chips away at everything we hold dear. And to date, there's no cure. So until there is we continue to fight with the most powerful tool in our arsenal. Love. This is love conquers all is a real and really positive podcast that takes a deep dive into everything. Alzheimer's, The Good, the Bad, and everything in between. And now here are your hosts Susie singer Carter and me, Don priests.

Susie Singer Carter: 3:14

Hello, I'm Susie singer Carter.

Don Priess: 3:16

And I'm Don priests and this is love conquers all calls. Hello, Susan. Donald. Hello, yes. Hello. You know, it's interesting. I think this if if you watch our episodes in order, you will find that our last three episodes your background just keeps changing.

Susie Singer Carter: 3:33

I like variety. Yes, it looks to me like this background.

Don Priess: 3:37

It's real. It's not virtual. It is real. It is you could stand up and touch it. But to do this.

Susie Singer Carter: 3:45

Yeah. And I put our I've put our illustrious awards. Do you see our awards?

Don Priess: 3:50

Fabulous. And the my mom, the girl poster, girl poster over there and delightful pictures I have behind me have a mirror and a lamp and tour a bathroom door. And then a little picture there? I think. So mine's not as exciting as yours. How are you?

Susie Singer Carter: 4:11

You're exciting. Yeah, I'm good. I'm very good. We're talking about you know, we're deep in the trenches of of the documentary, No Country for Old people. And, you know, more and more and more and more as we're editing. The concept of ageism is at the forefront of all the problems of every single problem that's going on. You know, it's all occurring because of ageism.

Don Priess: 4:44

Right. Absolutely. I mean, you see it even in you know, we always talk about, you know, obviously the documentary we're doing right now No Country for Old people, but you see it in, you know, we're trying to raise money for this. It's the hardest thing we've ever done because people the ages and comes in, they want to close their eyes to it. They don't want to hear about it. And that's to me, that's a sign of huge sign of ages and because they feel oh, it doesn't affect me it's or I just don't want to hear about it. Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. And I think that's, that's so telling, you know, as to what our society looks at the people you know, we should be revered and not

Susie Singer Carter: 5:31

to revere them all. Because some of them are no only

Don Priess: 5:33

those who are cool.

Susie Singer Carter: 5:37

People Yeah. Not the yucky old people just the nice old people. No, we don't like them. But no, but I'm just saying like, just do you know, as I'm, as I'm, you know, organizing all of our research and trying to put this puzzle together and you keep going how is this happening? Like it's so egregious and you really comes down to the fact that people are just not paying attention to what's going on and Our guest that's coming up today. She's been talking about this for this past decade. She's amazing. And she's you know, you're going to introduce her but I am she is preaching our word and singing to the choir and by doing it much more elegant, elegant,

Don Priess: 6:29

Eloquently,

Susie Singer Carter: 6:30

that's the word

Don Priess: 6:31

just like that.

Susie Singer Carter: 6:33

Just like that, like Don just did.

Don Priess: 6:34

And elegantly too. I think you've kind of crossed, elegantly, elegantly and eloquently.

Susie Singer Carter: 6:41

Both those e words

Don Priess: 6:42

and so the word you said was a combo. You've created a word and it's fabulous.

Susie Singer Carter: 6:47

That's called a spoonerism.

Don Priess: 6:48

Yes, a "suser-ism".

Susie Singer Carter: 6:49

a"susie-ism". Yeah, so I think I Yeah, so I'm excited to have this guest. I've been following her on Instagram, and I feel like, you know, I felt like she would be so busy not to be to come on our show. But here's she lo and behold, lo and behold, we we have some good karma. Got her. So, Don, without further ado.

Don Priess: 7:14

Today, our guest is Ashton Applewhite. She's a journalist, humorist TED speaker, and anti ageism activist who is boldly leading a grassroots movement to raise awareness of ageism, and how to dismantle it. She's the author of numerous wonderfully crafted books, including The groundbreaking this chair rocks a manifesto against ageism. The Washington Post calls it one of the 100 best books to read at every age and Forbes raves about it says one of the top 10 books to help you foster a more diverse and inclusive workspace. And you know what? It's also a great fun read. Ashton is also the co founder of the old school ageism Clearing House, which provides free anti ageism educational resources. And on her enlightening blog, yo is this ageist? She definitely answers questions submitted by readers about everyday instances of ageism. The decade of healthy aging, a collaboration between the United Nations and the World Health Organization recently named her one of the Healthy Aging 50, a group of leaders transforming the world to be a better place in which to grow older, inspiring and empowering. Ashton Applewhite truly wants the world to know. It's time for age pride. And we are proud to have her with us today. So please join us in welcoming Ashton Applewhite. Hello, Ashton.

Susie Singer Carter: 8:35

I, Hi Ashton. and so happy to have you here. So happy I've been following your your Instagram for a long time. And really, as you know, I reached out to you a couple of times, and just really spoke to me and resonated so much like like it does with I'm so many other people. I obviously think and, yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. And, you know, as you you might know, I'm doing a documentary, Don and I come No Country for Old people. And, and at the root of all this, the problems that we're having in the nursing home industry, and the long term care system is ageism,

Ashton Applewhite: 9:18

ageism and ableism - stigma around physical and cognitive capacity.

Susie Singer Carter: 9:25

100% kind of person. And, you know, I witnessed it firsthand, last year with my mom who had Alzheimer's for 16 years, and boy, was that a lethal combination, that ageism and ableism. At the very end, it was lethal. I could not save her. I couldn't sorry. Thank you. And, and, you know, and, and it was, it was daunting, the that I really got a sense of what ageism is, because it was you know, you think about ageism, I'm in Los Angeles. I'm in the entertainment industry. And we know what the ages of them is there. Right. And, but But you don't think about it in terms of the healthcare system. You don't think about it in terms of, of, you know, your quality of life, that you're having the actual quality of life, the actual motivation for people to even acknowledge your existence?

Ashton Applewhite: 10:27

Well, yeah, and I would, I would posit that you always have to zoom out and look at the systems that are in play. There's a great quote by an African American scholar named Amos Wilson that says, if you want to understand any problem in America, don't look at who suffers from it. Look at who profits from it.

Susie Singer Carter: 10:49

I love that quote.

Ashton Applewhite: 10:50

I know what's really going on here is capitalism is privatization. There's a zillion studies, there was just recently a huge one about for profit hospices. Oh yeah, we're where we have already you know, commodified birth now where we are commodifying death because the you know, the it's all being run more and more with the bottom line in mind and then zooming out in another direction, but of course it all intersects is is capitalism reduces the value of a human being to their, quote unquote, productivity. Kids aren't productive, right, and they don't even vote. And a lot of older people are not making money anymore. So the assumption is, if you know, you must be useless, you must be a burden. It's devaluing people simply because of how old they happen to be, which is pretty vile. It's beyond vile, it's the it's, it's definitely. It's disgusting. Yeah, no, that's exactly what my what our documentary is about is, you know, is the profit over people, the wealthcare over health care is what it is. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's something that I didn't know about, it's something that the world, for the most part doesn't know about, until you're in it, and then you're playing whack a mole, and it's too late. It's too late. So that my goal is and I feel like you are you are leading the way in this is to, is to, you know, to make a collective conscious conscience, consciousness and conscience, shift, and how we look at aging and how we look at the value of older people and how, and how we've been able to desensitize ourselves. And and, you know, as a as a population, it's not just here, it's global. Yeah, I mean, it's really, it depends on where in the world you are, it also depends on how capitalist those societies are. And it depends on whether people of all ages live in contact with each other, but everywhere, you know, modern systems have reached which is pretty much everywhere. Now.It's been harder for older people to remain valued members of society.

Susie Singer Carter: 13:06

Indeed, I found an article about with this reporter who was discovering this in African Garnet, and talking about how you would never see an elderly person on the streets, you would never see it because they just there was a different kind of construct of life and respect and reverence. And, and, and it's now prevalent, because it's become the individualistic, you know, paradigm has now moved into that, which was more of a communal paradigm. And now it's become this everywhere. It's, it's permeating it may not be, you know, pervasive, 100% pervasive, but it's certainly, certainly moving into areas where it wasn't even there before. So.So first, I, I love your book so much. I watched your TED talk again last night. And it's just so so inspiring. And so, so, so much, it's so true. Everything about it. Like I get chills thinking about it, because it's so true. And it's so it boggles my mind. And I guess I'm get to this age now. And I think I had no idea because I've never considered aging, I just considered just keep moving on. It's like,

Ashton Applewhite: 14:19

well, you know, I think I don't think it's all ageism, I think it's hard to imagine being old, you know, especially ah, slowly. I mean, as you're going, you know, I remember being a kid and thinking like, why are those people just sitting in chairs? Why would you sit when you could run right, and so on. So it's, it is hard to imagine our futures. As, as we're as species, we are not good at, you know, Americans have trouble saving, you know, we're, we're not good at it. And we're not culturally incentivized to do so. We are short sighted, you know, at collectively at considerable cost. But, but another reason we don't think about it is because we tend to think, you know, incidentally, like IQ, it's all going to be awful. the really fun thing, since it's been sort of a gloomy discussion so far, but I will say that if you had told me 15 years ago, I would be fascinated by aging, I would have said, Ooh, why do I want to think about something sad and depressing that people do. And aging is not what old people do. Aging is a journey that we embark upon the minute we are born, right? And for a generalist like me, it connects to every aspect of being human. It connects to every domain of study from, I mean, maybe not like astrophysics, but you know, philosophy, economics, biology, psychology, it's, it's, and, you know, you made me think of this because you say you don't want to think about it. We don't think about it much. But the more you think about it, the more interesting it is, and the less fear. It holds, partly because our our fears are so huge. And I want to say very clearly, those fears are notNot without basis, there are real things to worry about getting sick, ending up alone running out of money and I, you will not hear me say oh, just you know, have a good attitude or eat a lot of kale do enough sit ups, those things will go by by that is not true. But we live in a culture that profits in a financial way and and politically from those fears, right? We never hear the other side of the story. So the minute you start actually looking at aging, and please tell me if you have a different opinion, but you know, it's like, the scary things are still there. But holy crap, you know, all there's all these other ways in which aging enriches us and changes us and informs us, let's tell the whole side of the you know, the whole picture

Susie Singer Carter: 16:54

100% I don't disagree with you, I was gonna wait to talk about your you curve of happiness, because you get touches on it, you know, which really actually was very, very appealing to me that concept, because I didn't think about that, that that actually gave me a lot of hope. No kidding.

Ashton Applewhite: 17:12

Yeah, it's the it's the finding that people are happiest at the beginnings and the ends of their lives. You know, I think that as the population ages, we need to do a better job of taking care of ourselves and each other in later years, or that curve might change. But it's it is true across cultures, it is true, whether you are wealthy or poor, it is true, whether you are married or single. So it's not just you know, they didn't just, you know, I was so skeptical when I encountered this statistic, you know, I'm like, Oh, they must have, you know, grabbed two lucky eight, eight

Susie Singer Carter: 17:50

Okay, this is so good for our audience, year olds and given them a cookie and said, How are you doing, and it is a function of the way aging itself affects the healthy brain. And this is despite living in a society that that you know, has a lot of negative messages about getting older. So you know, when I, you know, I remind my friends in their 50s, I say, you know, this is this is the trough, this is where you are juggling maximum responsibilities, maximum career responsibilities, you know, teenagers driving you crazy, et cetera, et cetera. And one of the things that makes midlife so hard is the presumption because of ageism, that of it sucks now, it's just gonna get worse, and it doesn't get worse, it gets better. I think that is the perception is that you know, we're all going to end up you know, in firm did lying in a bed, you know, suffering. And according to the statistics, you show that that's not necessarily the case that even remotely I mean, don't take it from me take it from let's I think most people's darkest fear is dementia. And Alzheimer's is only one type of dementia, but it is the most common and go to the Alzheimer's Association website. One in 10. Americans, they estimate, it ends up with Alzheimer's, that's a lot of people. It's a terrible disease. But speaking of the other side of the story, you never hear that rates of Alzheimer's are declining, which they are and that people are being diagnosed at later ages. Again, not to poopoo it, you know, there's because I'm telling you, anybody that's been a caregiver for more older people. So there are more cases, but the odds of you or me being diagnosed with Alzheimer's have gotten lower. And yes, one out of 10 is a lot of people. But if you look at a curve, the incidence and age is the greatest risk factor. Absolutely. Again, you know, don't want to soft pedal that. But the older you are, the greater the risk, most of those people are in their 80s and 90s. So the effect on most of us most of the way is minimal, right. And our fears make us more vulnerable to exactly what we fear. I mean, this, I'll just say, one study, there's more and more data. And this what when I started thinking about this, I could not say ageism makes you sick. And now I can. There's all sorts of data. And by the way, if you don't want to buy my book, I have been writing out loud thinking out loud about this on my blog, this chair rocks.com/blog. So search health search Alzheimer's, search for levy because most of the research has been done by a Yale somebody with Alzheimer's. It's a minute, the minute I can't psychologist and epidemiologist named Becca Levy. And one of her think of a word, my heart goes like this. studies shows that people who have she says a more positive attitude towards aging. I like to say more accurate attitude because I don't want to ever seem to be like cherry picking the happy stuff. People with a more accurate attitude towards aging are less likely to get Alzheimer's, wait for it, even if they have the gene that predisposes them to the disease and her latest studies knows that it can reverse, mild cognitive decline, having positive, accurate age beliefs reverse. She's a really cautious scientist. She has the data. So when we think you know, if you have long glasses one morning and you think, Oh God, you know, terror like, what if this means the early stage of dementia, that anxiety is what makes you more liable? Because stress is bad for us.

Ashton Applewhite: 21:44

And that's just human, you know, that is human. No, I'm not dissing anyone about when he percent of the population escapes cognitive decline entirely, physical decline is inevitable, some part of your body is going to fall apart. Most of us do experience some loss in some kinds of processing speed and capacity, the name of the movie that you saw with what's her name last week, but that's all you lose, right? It takes us longer to find our slippers. I mean, I stand up, you know, my little hack is when I realized, like, I've left my computer downstairs already to order the cloud, I will stand up and name the mission, I will literally say it out loud, to increase the odds, when by the time I get to the bottom of the stairs, I'll remember what I went down there for now, I don't love having to do that. You know, I don't love having to spend longer trying to remember. But if it comes back to me, and I know that the odds are really, really, really, really, really excellent that I'm not going to get that ability back. But it doesn't mean I'm not going to remember what my computer is for. By Thursday, right? The fear is right for us.

Susie Singer Carter: 22:55

That's such a good point that you said, you said in the in your TED talk, I think it was about about, you know, I'm 64. And I've got a bad knee, I'm getting old. Well, your other leg doesn't have a bad knee. And it's just as old. So it's, and I love that if you can frame it like that and keep positive about it. You know, because you're right. There's so much pressure and

Ashton Applewhite: 23:16

positive but accurate, like accurate. Yeah, right. Think about we all have this tendency, no judgment, to blame stuff on how old we are. I'm too old for that, well, maybe your knee is too messed up. Maybe you're too lazy. Maybe you're too out of shape. Maybe you're too smart for it. Maybe you did it when you were 50. And you're gonna need to do it again. It's never about age, it is about physical capacity in that context, and the decline of physical capacity. does it relate to age, it's not that age is irrelevant. It's that we have to break the habit of saying, Oh, this is what young people do. This is what old people do the whole idea of age appropriate. If the person is like, over the age of consent, there's no such thing.

Susie Singer Carter: 24:05

Amen. I believe that. I want to go scooch back to the beginning now. So because I just want to frame this for our audience. So because I am getting I'm grasping with this, I'm grasping how to figure out how to do this this collective advocacy, as you said, you know, like how, how can we because because the nursing home crisis is so it's broken, our system is broken. And people because of ageism, don't look at it, because it doesn't affect them yet. But really, my mom's story is everybody's story. It's yours. It's mine. It's Don's It's everybody's

Unknown: 24:38

story of someone you care about?

Susie Singer Carter: 24:40

Absolutely. We're at one point, we're all going to be a caregiver or needed caregiver, just that's the way it is.

Unknown: 24:46

Right and thinking of it as just an old people's problem, you know, or they're old people, older people you care about, you know, yeah, and younger people and young people you care about, right? And so I would like not to be circumscribed by being it's I mean, caring for people is a beautiful, valuable, important part of being human. What makes it a burden is going it alone without support and under neoliberal capitalism, it's like it's your problem as an individual and it's shouldn't be a course it's it's your problem. No one loves your mom more than you do. But it's all should be not just a family issue, but a social issue right where we have systems because one of the reasons our fears are so great is because there is so little social and political support

Susie Singer Carter: 25:37

now there are no and and what is is very you know, it's it's it's performative at best, it's fairly it is politically and monetarily motivated. There's no oversight, it's it's just really wrapped against human rights. Basically, it's it's, you know, for to be crude about it. There. Were warehousing are vulnerable.

Unknown: 25:59

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, these are human rights, and human rights should not expire with them.

Don Priess: 26:05

Yeah. And capitalism. And and care coincide. Is it possible for capitalism and care to to act to work together? Where?

Unknown: 26:18

Yeah, if we I mean, it would mean, that court that we would have to choose and put in enact policy, that that has a priority other than corporate profits. You know, so that's, I mean, I mean, don't get me started on the colossal benefits. I mean, just even with, you know, with two oil companies, despite the fact that the the, you know, the planet is frying, and they are making colossal profits still, rather than putting any money into corrective measures, or, you know, these the people who own the, you know, hospitals and hospices, they're making buckets of dough. If they made less money when we're not, you know, then yes, that money could be diverted, it's doable, but we need the political will. And we need the political mechanisms,

Susie Singer Carter: 27:13

the political mechanism is not going to happen until the people stand up and demand it because right now, it's too it's too advantageous. And there's no, they're not incentivized at all to make any changes. Because that it's basically they're just, you know, CMS, don't get me started because to be there, there's like, there's zero oversight, they're handing the money to the foxes who are what looking at the chickens and they're going, Hey, you go go on in rent a room there, nothing

Unknown: 27:38

changes, except by the end unless people literally get in the streets and demand it. That is literally that is what compels social change, laws don't shape behavior, behavior, shapes, legislation, behavior, forces, policy and legislation.

Susie Singer Carter: 27:57

Listen to that. Listen to that, my friends, because that is so true, right, Dawn that

Don Priess: 28:02

we've seen it and it and we've seen it done before. And we have no reason it can't be done now.

Unknown: 28:08

I just read a great quote in the context of, of patriarchy with a lot of all the discussion that the Barbie movie has people talking about patriarchy, which regardless of what you thought of the movie is fantastic. Because it's for it's, it's IT people, when people talk about patriarchy, they are zooming out and looking at the system that oppresses all women. Right, you know, and that's, that's so important. You know, there are systems here that we need to recognize, so that we don't get squabbling about about smaller things, and who has a better, you know, piece of the pie or worse deal or whatever, we need to join forces across difference to force to build coalitions and compel change and

Don Priess: 28:52

patriarchy can also you know, we it shouldn't be so tied to gender, patriarchy is now much bigger

Unknown: 28:59

than for men to the quotes I've spaced and forgot the quote, the patriarchy, you know, can't want a woman said, Can Can we change patriarchy? And, you know, and the answer was, people created these systems and people can change them. That's right. You know, they are, they are, you know, sociology speak, they are socially constructed. You know, like, race is a social construction, it is not biology. You know, there is not they're not the patriarchy piece running around. But of course, women are complicit in patriarchy to were brainwashed, we're all complicit in ageism, we all grow up surrounded by these systems. And the first and hardest step is to look at our own our own perceptions of these systems and our own bias and the way in which we contribute to them and need to, you know, re re align ourselves. That is hard, that is unpleasant. The good news is that the next step and the next step, there's nothing automatic about understanding, you're acknowledging that you are biased, which we all are, and it's not a fun realization. The next step is fantastic, because it happens automatically. It's like letting a genie out of the bottle. Once you start to see ageism in the culture around you, or patriarchy and the culture around you. Boom, you start to see it everywhere, right? That's what consciousness raising does. You start to see like, oh, it's not because I'm to fill in the blank, too, you know, too unwell, too bossy, to whatever there are blondes to two blonde. I mean, with women, you know, too smart or too quiet, too old or too young. You're never you're never the right thing. And so it's not about you. It's about systems that profit from our divisions.

Susie Singer Carter: 30:56

Exactly. Exactly. Did not just just pivot a second Did you? Did you see the Barbie movie? I did. Did what do you think I loved it. Me too. Amen. Yeah, we did too. I thought that I thought that America Ferraris monologue which just kicked ass that, you know, I thought that you might like it after listening to what you you're reading what Yeah,

Unknown: 31:19

it's about the contradictions of being a woman. And I just you know from a nerdy your perspective, the Harvard Business Review just published a piece about women in leadership positions talking about why there are so few good news, there's always a reason why women are not promoted, you are either too single, too divorced or too married, you are too sexy, or not sexy enough, you are too assertive, and annoy people or you're not assertive enough, therefore can't possibly be a leader. And there's no age wise, there's no sweet spot, fertility wise, there's no sweet spot, men get a promotion, if they're going to become fathers, women get sidelined. Because of patriarchy and capitalism, the gender wage gap benefits the bottom line, it works for corporations, if women are competing for two seats at the table, instead of insisting on a crack at all 10 of them.

Susie Singer Carter: 32:14

And then what it does is it pits women against women. That's what I grew up with, you know, pitting women against women. So I mean, I did a whole I did a documentary for the Writers Guild couple years ago, just about that, you know, about

Unknown: 32:26

right, stay at home moms arguing with moms in the paid workforce about who's a better mom, instead of coming together to force, you know, collective actions to close the gender wage gap. So women could choose

Susie Singer Carter: 32:41

right not to stay while the guys are having their boys club and just climbing up the you know, failing upwards. We were you know, we're trying to break the glass ceiling at every chance we can get. And as soon as one woman does, they, they're, you know, they're they're blocking it back up, they're taping it back up, because they're really not.

Unknown: 32:59

And that's Yeah, yeah, but I hear you, I know, you're not I, I hear you. And I just want to put in make the point that as white women, much of mainstream white feminism has benefited other white women, and at the expense of women with disabilities, of women of color, and that we really need to be conscious that the changes that we want to see are done in consultation and collaboration with women who don't look like us, who may have ideas that don't make sense to us, or that we don't agree with but they are, that doesn't make them wrong or not legitimate. And in fact, you know, they may make some especially important because they're missing from the conversation, we need to be aware of that because, you know, if those women, women with less privilege do not enjoy equity, none of us are free.

Susie Singer Carter: 33:55

Agreed. I mean, I feel like you know, in our in, at least in my little social circle, you know, in my workforce, it's there is a big shift. And then yeah, there's a very, very big conscious, F conscious, it's been going on for I want to say the last four years, where women of color women of disability are really coming into their own power and past and and it is it's evidenced by the kinds of content that we have, by the by the leadership of women is been really it is it is really Don't you agree, Don? It's very,

Don Priess: 34:29

I think you definitely yeah, it you see it more and more literally every day. And then then you get into the issue. And this is all you know, the same thing about, you know, well wait, now we're going to go too far that way. So the other people like Susie doesn't have a chance now, because now it's all going you know, and that's

Susie Singer Carter: 34:49

and we've talked about that we've talked we talked about that all the time. It's

Unknown: 34:52

not zero sum. Now. You know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was asked how many women she shot thought she'd be on the Supreme Court. And she said, nine you know, which she didn't mean, it should write it needs to be all women. But women need to think why are we thinking in terms of the traditional share that's gone to women, or even 50%? Men? Don't men don't think that way? Because they don't have to? Because and they're not. They're not? They're not used to doing so because the system doesn't compel them to think that way. Right. And, and so, but those systems are not good for anyone you know, patriarchy is why we have toxic masculinity and men who are, you know, unable to be vulnerable publicly and in cells, you know, the most radical and, you know, you know, literally shooting women because they're, you know, not, they shouldn't be able to, you know, have all the power, and they resent when it will. But you know, all this, the pushback that you mentioned, is a sign that we are getting somewhere you know, to hear people talk me to was a failure. Black Lives Matter is over occupy was a flop. I disagree. I think those ideas are living on powerfully in the culture She agreed. And you know, it's incredibly demoralizing to see the pushback on women's rights. Let's pass the Equal Rights Amendment. How about that one. But the fact that there's pushback is a sign that these movements are beginning to threaten actual power structures.

Don Priess: 36:23

I agree. Yeah. And it's and it's can be incremental in that, even like, with our documentary, we're like, you know, when we know when, when this is over, we are not going to solve the entire problem. But if you can chip away, and you had the Legos, chip, chip chip, and we said leaving if look, if we if we make two people's lives better, that's better.

Unknown: 36:44

I completely agree. We I'm, I am a co founder of a site called Old School, which I will just say is the it's hundreds of free vetted resources to educate people about ageism, old school dot info. And we have a weekly meetup, anyone can join, go to old school dot info and find out how it's easy. Um, but we end each meeting with it's, you know, it's no step is too small, no step is too late. We are not going to end ages, we are not going to end racism. But a formulation that I find really helpful, is it you know, it can seem I don't like to talk in terms of ending it, you know, we're helping to end it, we're moving the needle. Yeah. And it can feel like a really heavy load, when you realize that, you know, these systems depend on each other and reinforce each other, right, this idea of intersectionality of this, you know, weight layer of weights, but just exactly what you just said, Dawn, that when we chip away at any form of prejudice, we chip away at the fear and ignorance that underlie them all. When you are being anti racist, you are helping in ageism, you are making life better for older people of color, when you chip away at ageism, you are helping everyone because all people who are lucky, right, and aging should not be a privilege, it should be a right. But it's not because of all these forms of oppression. We're working constantly with the littlest movements to to undermine them all. So it's not zero sum, you know, that activism is, you know, is is intersectional. Also,

Susie Singer Carter: 38:27

yes. I love that. Yeah. And I got never too small, thank you to remind me that because, you know, in this in this world, where we're living right now in the world of healthcare, and you realize that every second that goes by someone's suffering, because of the of this, this system that we have created, which really, you have to blame it on ages, and because if the if everyone in the public knew what was going on and really knew, I mean, we give more, we give more grace to pets, and children and prisoners, and yet we've got people warehouse, and they're, they're suffering, it's torture. What's going on? And I'm not I'm not exaggerating. I mean, it really is.

Unknown: 39:11

I mean, I wouldn't want to say we're, we treat prisoners better. But a rather than getting into an argument about that, which I know you're, you're with me on this, let's look at the same forces that profit from the prison industrial complex. You know, yeah, they are related, which is why the umbrella of capitalism is so useful.

Susie Singer Carter: 39:32

Yeah, you're right. You're right. So what are the roots of ages? And just give us a couple? What do you what is it all come from?

Unknown: 39:42

Um, well, you know, it comes from the culture around us. And I think, um, you know, we already touched on the fact that it's hard to imagine growing old longevity, this longevity is new, you know, humans in the last 100 years are living everywhere longer than ever before. When people life expectancy average life expectancy in the US at the turn of the 20th century was 47. So there's a lot more openness. And in the 20th century, it started to be conceived of as a problem to be solved, which is when retirement villages came into being, it's when nursing homes came into being. It's when Social Security came into being which has lifted millions and millions of Americans out of poverty, but it also othered older people, and it made it easier to conceive of us as a problem as an economic burden. So you know, the answers to all these things are really, really complex. I mean, longevity represents a triumph of public health. Again, the issues are real, you know, because of ableism because of the loss of physical and cognitive capacity, which is not synonymous with aging. Lots of older people are sharp as a weapon active to the end, but they do relate ate, right. And because of that an older population is going to require support. And that's complicated. And the extreme end of the supports that they need is exactly the subject of your important work and your documentary. Right. So we need to acknowledge those things, but we need to, we need to understand where the fears come from, and what purpose they serve. And, you know, ableism, which is a stigma and prejudice around physical or cognitive capacity. You know, I think most of what we think of as ageism, most of our apprehension about getting older is about that loss. And that is not actually again, it's related to age, but lots of younger people have disabilities, lots of older people do not and we need to understand what they are, where they're different, how they overlap of the information other in order to understand what we're up against coalition building, think there's, there's a fantastic Disability Justice Movement, mostly led by young queer women of color, who identify proudly as disabled who are doing all sorts of amazing work. You know, I think what we olders who are aging into disability could learn from them about adapting and identifying, and you know, they could learn a thing or two from us, right? Yeah, instead of just going to, I'm maybe old, but at least I'm not disabled. And from the other end, I may just say, be disabled, but at least I'm not old. You know, that's a whole little thing, like people not wanting to use canes and walkers, because it makes them look old. And by the way, most of those people are 6070 and 80. They don't want to go to work, you know, senior joint, because it's full of old

Susie Singer Carter: 42:54

people, people. Yeah,

Unknown: 42:56

yeah. Can't have that PS, you're one

Susie Singer Carter: 42:58

of Yes, exactly. Right.

Unknown: 43:00

I mean, huge tell is how many people who have more road behind them than ahead. Still talk about older people

Susie Singer Carter: 43:09

as them. Right.

Unknown: 43:12

And as long, you know, ageism is a distancing from your own future older self and it is not healthy. To go through life. You know, in in that with that kind of distance is a four letter

Don Priess: 43:27

word is is older for us. Is it something that we should just banish from our vocabulary, or it'll tell us about is, is bad,

Unknown: 43:35

we'll know things are old antiques are old, we love you know, Europe's old. We love that shit. You know, what's the problem is the negative connotation attached to old. I mean, if you think about dyke, right, or queer, those used to be deep pejoratives. And they were appropriated by the gay community and gay women, as you know, and crip is another one, that many people with disabilities now identify with proudly, if you know, I'm old, I don't have a problem saying that, but it took me a long time to get there. If you don't want to call yourself old, no judgement. We each need to do this in our own way at our own time, but it shouldn't be pejorative, it should be just another word like, you know, Indonesian, or, you know, vegetarian. That is it, we

Susie Singer Carter: 44:31

can maybe we need another pronoun like they,

Don Priess: 44:33

or maybe let's embrace it young or old. We're

Susie Singer Carter: 44:36

just a person and we're, we're on a journey. I believe we

Unknown: 44:40

embrace it. But honestly, the world I want is not. It is a world in which age is neutral, right? It's there. It's a crucial part of our identity. But it doesn't have any value attached to it. It has information, but not value. And just one point about the information. The older we age at different rates, right? And each one of us in a sense, we're socially at some level, psychologically, another physically another developmentally. So then each of those is sort of a variable component of in each of us. So the older the person, the less their age, their chronological age says about them. The you know, gerontologists geriatricians Who are you know, doctors for old people say, and I've heard them say it, if you've seen one, octogenarian you've seen one octogenarian there could be it's, you know, this whole argument about whether you're too old to run for office, you know that the health profile of a single 80 year old especially if you are a well off white man who has the best you know, health care and fitness and diet available to them says nothing you know, about the likely you know, the health status of another. So, I want a world where age is not just a number, we can't dismiss it. We shouldn't wish to put it under the rug but where it's stripped of any positive or negative connotation. It's like what kind of car you drive where you live, who you sleep with, it's part of who we are. And we shouldn't be discriminated against it and we shouldn't be put on a pedestal or dumped in a nursing home. Well, we're, by the way, sorry, one more or less. But people don't end up in nursing homes because they're old. They end up in nursing homes, because they're disabled. So y'all could do some really, really interesting advocacy around that, because people who think institutional care is fine for old people, but not okay for young people. Right are being ageist. And we, it's the same cause no one at any age should be dumped in a shitty institution. We do they do. If you need, you know, professional nursing care, you need a facility that can provide it right. But it shouldn't be, you know, understaffed and all those things. You know, that's already

Ashton Applewhite: 47:10

how you might build coalitions with the disability justice movement around the de institutionalisation which we saw a lot of in the 20th century, you know, of people with disabilities living in community, where is that ethos when it comes to older people, because age should not disqualify you from that ethical standard. Right, right. We and I think that come and I agree with you, 100%, we we interviewed people that are of different ages in in nursing homes, just so that we can make that point. But but still in all and I always talk about it on our show about you know, Benjamin Button, which is my greatest references that, you know, we, we, you know, children babies don't have language for sometimes for two and a half, three years. They don't use words. They don't articulate, but they certainly they certainly communicate. And we give them grace and we communicate with them. And we can we can we know when they're happy. We know when they're sad. We know when they're mad for sure. We know how they're hungry and and in discomfort. Well, that's the same with someone who's lost their ability to to articulate, you know, physically, they will. Yeah, another study of Becca Levy, she coined the term elder speak, which is that sort of derogatory, condescending, Oh, honey, it can be benevolent and intent, but it's still condescending and not okay, that even people with profound dementia grew more agitated. When people spoke condescendingly 100%, and the education in our, in our world, you know, in terms of that, in terms of aging, in terms of what you just said, is, is so deficient, because the even the people working within the industry are so under educated, you know, I mean, I had they can, they can be there often, it was a huge surprise to me, you know, when I because I came to this with no background in the field whatsoever. And when I sort of, you know, drank the Kool Aid and went, gee, we really need to call out ageism, that was before I understood that ableism was also a big piece of it, they're going to be so happy to hear from me, well, not so much, because and I'd say this with no disrespect at all, the work that people do in nursing homes, and other you know, institutional settings, care in general, is incredibly important, and incredibly undervalued. And it is hard. And, and it is really hard. And, you know, caring for the people at the most debilitated end of the spectrum, in it is really, really hard to reconcile that piece of getting old with what you hope lies ahead for yourself. You know, that's a tough psychic task. And, you know, I respect that they are embarked on it and doing the best they can. Absolutely, we just need to give them the support that they need to which they're not education. Yeah. And education. So we have we had a huge exodus of, of, you know, frontline workers and providers who have just can't deal with it because there's moral injury, they can't do the job they want to do. And so they're not being paid. There's not enough benefits, they're being disrespected, and they're being overworked. Because, you know, that's where they cut corners on cost Agree, agree. And that's why the work is you know, done by so much of it by women, so many of which are not, you know, registered citizens who are ripe for exploitation. So I mean, you know, all this already, but it's yeah, the reasons so many older people died in institutional care was because care workers had to have several jobs in order to put food on the table for their kids. So they unintentionally became vectors for the COVID virus. We could talk for 17 hours and I love stuff that we didn't even get to but I don't care I like always the way I love you so much. You are my you're my queen. You're you're speaking so well for us and I so proud to know you and I'm so proud of the work you're doing. So thank you You're so welcome.

Susie Singer Carter: 51:11

so, so much.

Don Priess: 51:12

Thank you.

Ashton Applewhite: 51:13

Thank you for making this movie making a documentary is hard, you know? So

Don Priess: 51:17

Indeed.

Susie Singer Carter: 51:18

All right,

Ashton Applewhite: 51:19

good luck to you.

Don Priess: 51:20

Have a great day. Take care, take care.

Susie Singer Carter: 51:22

Well, that was an amazing interview. I love that woman. And I hope that everyone got a lot out of it, because I got so much out of it. And if you if you didn't get enough of her on this podcast, do go and watch her TED Talk. Listen to her TED Talk. It's so good. It's so invigorating and smart.

Don Priess: 51:44

It's amazing how she changes you like the way she speaks. She changes your perspective. And changing that perspective is everything. You know, when she's talking about, you know, one out of 10 people may get Alzheimer's? Well, if you look at it as nine out of 10, won't. That sounds? I mean, that that kind of takes some of that worry away. And she said that worry is what leads can help lead to that, you know, so if nine out of if nine out of 10 adults are worrying about being the one out of 10. You know, then I mean, it's so just changing that viewpoint is amazing, and everything, and she does it in a way that you just see it right away.

Susie Singer Carter: 52:25

I agree. I think that how how we view ourselves is always going to be is always going to impact how we feel, how we how productive we are, what we put out into the world and what we attract, right? So if we're feeling negative, we're going to attract negativity, we're going to attract we make you know that we know that our that our mental state is how it always affects our physical state. That's that's just a given. So if we're going to stress and lament about some construct that isn't even relate to us about aging, that's just shooting ourselves in the foot. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. doing hip hop to the day I die. That's the way it goes. I've been

Don Priess: 53:13

thinking negativity is doing the thing. It's creating the thing you're worried about. It's that negativity. It's yeah, I mean, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Exactly. Right.

Susie Singer Carter: 53:25

Yeah. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's like, it's like in any relationship. If you're worried about that person leaving you? Well, you're gonna, you're gonna worry them out the door. Yeah, I gotta push him right out. You're gonna push him right out. So there you go. There's our there's our profound words of the day from Don and Susie. So, brilliant. You're welcome.

Don Priess: 53:44

We are terrific.

Susie Singer Carter: 53:46

You're welcome. But that's because we love you.

Don Priess: 53:49

And that's because love is powerful. Love is contagious, and love conquers all. So we so appreciate you watching, listening. Please subscribe. Also, Susan, we're working on something pretty important. And that is No Country for Old people. And we're still looking for that. That push to get us over the edge. So if you if you want to be part of our movement, please go to our GoFundMe and help support the production of this very, very important film. See you next time.

Susie Singer Carter: 54:28

Hey, this is Susie singer Carter. And I just wanted to take a minute to talk to you about bed sores. I know but if you're like I was you probably don't have a clue what a bed so really is. Most people don't. I mean, no one told me and I really just assumed it was part of the body that was like the name says sore from lain in one position too long. And then if you change the position, all better. Wrong. That sore is really a euphemism for more appropriate names such as pressure wound, and to keep it as ulcer. Unfortunately, I discovered what a bedsore really was. When my mom was admitted into the hospital last year with a stage four ulcer, that is the worst level, you don't ever want that to happen. bed sores can develop quickly and worsen rapidly and can lead to serious health issues, even death if they're not properly treated, or properly treated. And that includes cleaning and dressing the wound, but most importantly, reducing pressure off the sore by frequently changing the position of the person off of their wounds so it can heal and that can mean propping the person up 30 degrees to the side, far enough to be off the lower back, but not too far as to be on the side hip where there isn't much cushion right between the skin and the bone. This is why I'm so excited to tell you about bedsore rescue, which was designed by an amazing woman when jewel a nurse who was tired of fooling around with simple pillows and bulky wedges that just don't work. The beds are rescue positioning wedge cushions are uniquely designed to provide ergonomically correct and comfortable support for a sustained period of time without touching the sore and the curvatures and bilateral angles make it possible for the bedside cushion to be used to support many other body parts as well. You can put the heels you can put it under the head, you can put it under the arms behind the knees, both sides. You can even use it as a breakfast in bed table, the curvatures of the bed so rescue fit the curvatures of your person's body and it's made to meet all the patients safeties, and bed bound positioning standards for acute and long term care facilities. I wish I had it for my mom, I really do. So chances are if you have a loved one in long term care facility, or at your home, you may become a pressure injury soldier too, but bed sores should never never get to stage four. And one way to ensure that they don't is to make sure that as soon as one begins to develop, you keep the pressure off. You can do that easily with beds so a rescue and you can find bedsore, rescue and many other pressures solutions online at jewel nursing solutions home of the patented bed so rescue positioning which cushions pads and pillows that's Jool je w e l l nursing solutions.com. And when you use the special code and C F O P the entire amount of your purchase will go to support our important documentary No Country for Old people, which chronicles my mother's journey navigating the nursing home long term care crisis that literally began with an unreported untreated pressure wound. So take the pressure off yourself and your loved one with the bedsore rescue